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The insane mechanics of the 'fear ritual' of capitalism

The following is a guest post by Aren Airuza, blogger at the moving going somewhere?.

I've spent the last week trying to decide whether to engage––as may be expected on a 'literary' blog––in 'close reading' in a philosophical/literary manner, or to get eclectic on your asses, and tie some questions Spivak asks to questions I'd like people to think more about.  I ended up going with the latter, and at length.  But first, prefatory caveats.  Part of the oddness of my response to "Scattered Speculations", I think, is that capitalism has never seemed that coherent or smooth to me.  It has always seemed crazy.  Now, I am not a scholar of Marx, and I lack skills in parsing the distinctions in debates about use-value, exchange-value and surplus-value unless they are explained to me very slowly.  But it still seems 'intuitive' that capitalism runs on crisis.  There's an interview in Hatred of Capitalism where Jack Smith calls capitalism (or rather, landlordism, but he saw landlordism as an extension of capitalism) a fear ritual, completely counterintuitive:  "We have to spend the rest of our time struggling against the uses we make of our money against us."  This might be about antagonism rather than indeterminacy, I know, but I will come back to Jack Smith later.  (I also committed to blogging against heteronormativity today, and later I'll try to address that in regard to value.)  What I get from "Scattered Speculations" is yet another insight into the precise mechanics of that insanity; and, more importantly, the role of imperialism and 'culture' in that mechanics.

It strikes me as ironic that in the original discussion about doing a symposium evaluating a 'bad academic writer', Butler was proposed before Spivak.  Of course, Judith Butler, that odd dykey nerd that no-one really gets (except queer theory heads), although everyone wants to––and if they don’t get it, they see it as some obscure insult.  Last week on qstudy-l, a US-based queer studies listserv I'm on, someone posted a link to Butler's 1999 award of the Fourth Annual Bad Writing Contest, as if it had just happened yesterday.  The resulting replies were like the qstudy equivalent of "OMG thats so cool!!!!1! butler is such a moron!!1!"  Someone else pointed out that the contest was seven years ago, but it didn't stop an outpouring of anti-Butler sentiment.  It's like time stopped for Butler at that moment, and she can never live the episode down.  The article circulates around the web like a deranged meme, trading on the gullible Schadenfreude of procrastinating graduate students.   But that's beside the point.  People hate Butler, and Spivak, for similar reasons:  the fact that a woman is speaking in a language one may not immediately understand means, for some, that she is speaking nonsense.  A lesbian woman, a non-white woman:  oh, she must be stupid.  But the problem also relates (particularly with Spivak) to the impossibility of branding:  the impossibility of knowing to which discipline a writer properly belongs and her refusal to stay within the bounds of the 'discipline' per se; her demand that a reader travel across rather than inside philosophical or theoretical zones and learn by traveling.

There's an important moment in this lecture where Spivak claims her first working definition for the condition of subalternity was not as a categorisable identity, but those who are, at any given moment, “without access to the lines of social mobility.”  While both Spivak and Butler may be geographically mobile, as conference-hopping academic superstars, Butler is forever freeze-framed as the blinking butt of a frathouse joke awards night, and Spivak is constantly equated with exotic food, the everpopular medium through which anti-colonial or non-colonial practices are consumed, spewed back up as ‘indigestible’, re-digested as fetish, and finally assimilated into “Western” economic and cultural hegemony as, say, a McDonald’s Tasty Tandoori Chicken Wrap.  (By engaging in the gumbo joke, I merely repeated that mistake, it seems, and unnecessarily.)

Here I risk being accused of conflating and comparing 'sexuality' and 'geography/ethnicity' as if they were comparable or as if the laws governing each category were the same.  What I'm trying to say is, no, they are not the same:  but in the dynamic of 'universal equivalence' (capitalism/democracy) they circulate as such, and within that dynamic, certain strategies may repeat themselves.  Neither theorist is permitted to move past her ‘background’, or her supposed grounding in a visibly different identity.  Social mobility here grinds to a halt.  But maybe this is also a fragmented potential subaltern resistance strategy, in which you could read 'incomprehensibility' also as the deliberately broken cog that grinds the machine itself to a halt.  (Here I’m gesturing towards a ‘strategic incomprehensibility’:  a style not premised on being clear, or ‘common-sensical’, strategically, as a way of resisting the hegemonic call to “make sense! Speak!”)  Because in the moment where marketability and identity converge, social mobility is also the circulation of a particular kind of value.  In the same way that products are made to be consumed, books are supposedly written to be understood, people say; books are written (supposedly) to be summarised in first-year courses on philosophy, deconstruction, sexuality, feminism, "the postcolonial", etc.  Not for themselves.

Here a question arises:  how, then, does the discontinuity so central to Spivak's thinking in "Scattered Speculations"––discontinuity, crisis, rupture as management and as reproduction of the chain of value––intervene on the scene where Spivak herself ruptures the smooth progress/processing of contemporary philosophical history?  "[For Spivak] the notion of value as continuity," Jon writes, "is at best mistaken, at worst ideological, and so complicit."  Because if Spivak herself ruptures continuity, she herself also reproduces the chain of value (or rather, not 'she', the person, but 'Spivak' the name.)  Again, I am having a hard time keeping within the bounds of the Marxological calculus of [economic] capital and not simply talking about value, as such.  But isn't this the point?  Any idea of value is about economics, just as any idea of economics can be about values.  I'll try to think both at the same time.

When a Spivak blogweave was first proposed, I momentarily confused "Scattered Speculations" with another essay, "Poststructuralism, Marginality, Postcoloniality and Value" (1990).  This was a productive moment of confusion.  In the 1990 essay, Spivak talks about how 'marginality' suddenly began to circulate as a buzzword in academia.  She also returns to the subject of value, in what I think is a far more compact or 'portable' consideration than "Scattered Speculations", at least for me:

A word to name the margin.  Perhaps that is what the audience wanted to hear:  a voice from the margin.  If there is a buzzword in cultural critique now, it is 'marginality'.  Every academic knows that one cannot do without labels.  To this particular label, however, Foucault's caution must be applied, and we must attend to its Herkunft or descent.  When a cultural identity is thrust upon one because the centre wants an identifiable margin, claims for marginality assure validation from the centre.  It should then be pointed out that what is being negotiated here is not even a 'race or a social type' ... but an economic principle of identification through separation. (200)

And later:

'Value' is the name of that 'contentless and simple' thing by way of which Marx rewrote not mediation, but the possibility of the mediation that makes possible in its turn all exchange, all communication, sociality itself. (205)

From all that begs for commentary there, right now I can only take on the ‘contentless’ part:  the insight that the actual content of a category, or commodity-form, in circulation within capital does not matter.  (I'm trying to figure out if this means that the use-value of the commodity doesn't really matter, only exchange-value.  Advice?)  The content, per se, of the 'marginalised' does not matter (for example, which marginal and from where, and what hir life is like).  What does matter is that the entry of 'the marginalised' into debate sends the existing economy into momentary crisis:  at that conjuncture in the mid-1980's, and in every moment in a group or collective or 'democratic' situation in which people say, "We're all too white here, we need some diversity," or, "We have to start addressing the needs of 'the marginalised'."  Hence, tokenism.  Ange has talked about the irrelevance of content under capitalism and democracy a lot, and my thinking is very influenced by hers, here.

This ties in an anti-identity politics strategy quite nicely with a critique of capitalism.  But, so what?  In response to Ange's differentia specifica post, Danny asks, "How does one process or hybridise the labour of the Other that is incorporated in one's own cognitive labour?".  Aside from how that's an awesome question in itself, it calls for attention to be paid to the specificity and difference of labour, how labour is not all the same (neither in a temporal, epochal sense or a horizontal, democratic sense):  how, as Spivak notes, the earning of $2 million for 15 minutes of labour is only made possible by Sri Lankan women for whom a buying a t-shirt costs 2287 minutes at work (171).  Attending to that incorporation of the Other's labour might also involve seeing how the subject, 'we', of the statement, "We need more marginality," is shaped as a homogeneity through the positioning of others as valuable only because of their 'marginality', and as a call to attend to the levels of coercion under which anyone deemed 'marginal' must labour:  both to stay there, and to escape or refuse that appellation.

I'm going to finish really soon, I promise, but I also promised to return to Jack Smith, and to talk about heteronormativity.  I can't really talk about heteronormativity without also critiquing 'the gay and lesbian community', since that particular value crisis has resulted, here and elsewhere, in a new nearly-smooth sexual economy in which gayness is nearly as accepted, and just as boring, as heterosexuality.  (I said, nearly smooth.  Don't get excited.)  In the same interview I cited above, Jack Smith talks about how the 'gay movement' had become a ghetto and how the industry of 'gay' subject-production was "just one of the unexpected bad side developments ... that's making it possible to be so happily ghettoized." (249)  This was in 1978.  Gay rights talk is also, it seems, one of the bad side-effects.

A couple of weeks ago, Jasmyne Cannick wrote an article in the Advocate 'coming out' against the massive open borders marches that some are calling a 'new poor people's movement' in the US.  Her logic goes like this:  if hard-working, tax-paying gay and lesbian citizens still don't have all of their rights, then why should 'illegal immigrants' be given more rights than 'us'?  They're not citizens.  They should wait their turn.

I won't go into the dangers of the 'scarcity' model of rights here, but I will touch on how 'gay rights' fought for at the expense of 'other' rights––particularly the rights that relate to freedom of movement and labour––merely bolster heteronormativity through reproducing queers as the equivalents of straight people.  Why?  Because when the goal becomes 'to have the same rights as straight people', who are the straight people one wants the equivalent rights of?  Not, I assume, undocumented migrant heteros living in constant danger of deportation.  Heterosexuality is not a mass identity in which no difference subsists; it shores up some, important, apparatuses of differentiation (among them the reproduction of labour, and labouring subjects) but it cuts across others.

This anti-immigration stuff probably gets published in the Advocate all the time by white gay male writers and no-one gives a crap.  Post Andrew Sullivan, we expect it.  The key difference here was that Cannick circulated her ideas speaking as a 'Black lesbian.'  A flurry of responses ensued from non-white, pro-migration queers saying, in essence (and angrily), "This woman does not speak for us."  It seems pertinent here to consider how much labour must go into that calculus of distancing, and the context in which that labour takes place.  It's a context in which different rhetorics of blame and racism position themselves against and through each other; and in which subalternity does not have the option of shrugging off its 'bad representatives', because one representation might result in everyone queer and non-white being targeted (however ironically) for being "anti-migration".  It's also a context in which white, male middle-class subjects always already inhabit unmarkedness.  They are not required to speak for anyone except themselves.  They are almost always permitted the great invisible privilege of "just expressing an opinion."

To bring it full circle, I ask this:  if Spivak were permitted that privilege, would people find her work so difficult to comprehend?

By Az | April 22, 2006 in Marxism, Sex, Spivak | Permalink

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Comments

The food metaphor's apt, perhaps, because it's a cultural practice with tangible, material consequences which make the logics of assimilation easier to think through. Also, it introduces the possibility of arousing disgust, therefore bringing to the fore, "on a gut level," deep-seated anxieties about other cultures. (This isn't my argument, mind you.)

Posted by: Scott Eric Kaufman | Apr 22, 2006 6:04:19 PM

Thanks for bringing up some concrete political questions -- which have, for the most part, been absent from these discussions.

I like thinking of Jack Smith as the abject foil for the tanned/gym-happy log cabin crowd.

Incidentally, there was some more discussion of the black community's resistance to the Latino-led protests on NPR last week. Another factor in that resistance is the sense that the positioning of immigrants as "hard-working" reinforces the negative historical stereotypes of African-Americans.

And now to your question:

To bring it full circle, I ask this: if Spivak were permitted that privilege, would people find her work so difficult to comprehend?

I gather you're pointing to the overlap between what might be the difficulty of her jargon and the rhetorically "impossible" position she's trying to occupy: deconstructing the center's need for a margin from a position that is neither fully "outside" nor "inside" that center.

On the one hand, the question is kind of unanswerable, because if she were an upper-middle class white man with three kids and a devoted wife supporting 'his' career, she might never have gotten interested in feminist, Marxist, postcolonial deconstruction.

On the other hand, one could point to people who have come from backgrounds similar to Spivak's, but who have simply chosen to write differently: Kum Kum Sangari and Rajeswari Sunder Rajan, for instance. Both are feminist critics who have spent time in the American academy, and who have at times made arguments similar to Spivak's about the complexity of the postcolonial position. But they have done so without sounding like Spivak. (Incidentally, in recent postcolonial scholarship, the citation of Spivak has dropped precipitously.)

I grant that some arguments are harder for western academics to hear because they tend to be uncomfortable (like your question about how our intellectual labor is dependent on other people's physical labor). But I think it's possible that this is all an elaborate defense mechanism against the charge of unintelligibility that is specific to Spivak as opposed to generalizable to the position she occupies.

Posted by: Amardeep | Apr 23, 2006 9:42:17 AM

"People hate Butler, and Spivak, for similar reasons: the fact that a woman is speaking in a language one may not immediately understand means, for some, that she is speaking nonsense."

This is a common assumption in these debates, i.e. that the dispute can be psychologized away with a dismissive gesture in the direction of 'hatred of difficulty', but I've never seem much in the way of defense of this position. Why do you assume that hostility to Butler and Spivak proceeds from a general hostility to things that are not immediately understood? For rather obvious reasons, this is psychologically implausible. Many of those who critique 'Theory' - Spivak, Butler, et. al. - spend their days reading difficult works of philosophy, after all.

Also, the original proposal wasn't to discuss a 'bad writer', but to discuss a generally acclaimed Theorist - one who could not be dismissed as a lightweight. The proposal of Butler's name came from CR, who can hardly be dismissed as a knee-jerk anti-Theorist. And the proposal of Spivak came from Matt (I think); likewise, hardly a knee-jerk anti-Theorist. So the hint you drop that somehow this debate shows that bad writer = butler/spivak (women!) is just a confusion about how the debate got started.

Posted by: jholbo | Apr 23, 2006 12:32:48 PM

It also sounds curious: is Butler regarded (in the Anglo-American academy) as a "diffficult" theorist? To the third world readership she is more often a "synthesizing" thinker, who reads Foucault in a productive, yet a little pedagogizing manner. That is, she is regarded as smoothing the grainy French theory for the US academy. Rendering it more pragmatic.
If anything, she is criticized for making things slightly too easy...

Posted by: pomegrenade | Apr 23, 2006 3:15:04 PM

Well, I seem to have paintd myself into a corner sufficiently :)

Amardeep:

I gather you're pointing to the overlap between what might be the difficulty of her jargon and the rhetorically "impossible" position she's trying to occupy: deconstructing the center's need for a margin from a position that is neither fully "outside" nor "inside" that center.

Yes, and the impossible position is (often) the only viable place; there is no place to locate oneself that isn't impossible or incoherent at some point. And of course, there's a long list of writers who say similar things to Spivak or who are similarly 'postcolonial' (although postcolonial is not a great way to describe it, I think) but are not 'difficult'. What's specific to Spivak is that she doesn't believe in 'recognition', doesn't believe in producing herself as easily readable. So there's a sese in which she gets critiqud in the same way that Derrida might be. And yet it's also different, and I think gender and race stuff makes an entry here.

John, I didn't mean to imply that CR or Matt were proposing Butler or Spivak as 'bad theorists'. But from the comments way, way back on the weblog, and that 'original' discussion about Higher Eclecticism, I got the impression that Butler and Spivak were mooted because they may be respected theorists, but they also have reputations as 'difficult' and fit into your definition of HE. Which, you've said yourself, is (at least partially) about 'bad writing'.

But this is a curious thing: any critique that points out how gender and race are deployed in order to dismiss someone as hopelessly difficult is psychologising? I'm not at all sure I claimed this reading problem was just about difficulty. Difficulty comes into it, though. And perhaps that wouldn't come up if, for example, you'd engaged with Spivak's reading of Marx instead of focusing on her literary style in your post.

Pomegrenade, I agree that Butler is a synthesiser and for that reason, perhaps a bad example here. But yes, where I'm at (the Anglo-Australian academy, not the Anglo-American, and it might be different here) she's regarded as horrendously difficult and annoying.

And hey, Amardeep, I was trying to frame that question about the cost of labour slightly differently than posing a distinction between the physical labour of the margins and the 'intellectual labour' of the centre. That formulation is certainly the easiest moment to recognise, and yet paying attention only to that runs the risk of ignoring the whole crazy raft of 'intellectual' and affective labours that are expected and demanded of 'margins' in different moments and in different ways.

Posted by: az | Apr 23, 2006 11:37:41 PM

az writes: "any critique that points out how gender and race are deployed in order to dismiss someone as hopelessly difficult is psychologising?" But the point is that you are making a strong and unargued assumption about HOW gender and race are deployed, in connection to issues of 'difficulty'. (How on earth could you possibly be in a position to know whether I am reacting the way I do to Butler and Spivak because I am hostile to their gender/race? Simply assuming I am mildly racist and sexist seems rather noteworthy, after all. You should DEFEND these claims, if you really want to make them.) In general, this sort of psychological assumption is exceedingly familiar in these debates. (I feel about this sort of claim the way you no doubt feel about people circulating news of Butler's win in the Bad Writing contest. Must we always party like it's 1999?) The problem isn't the psychologizing, per se, it's begging the question concerning the philosophical issues at stake by spiking the debate with unargued psychological assumptions.

"And perhaps that wouldn't come up if, for example, you'd engaged with Spivak's reading of Marx instead of focusing on her literary style in your post." I was invited to contribute something about my ideas on Higher Eclectism in relation to Spivak. That would be a stylistic question, more or less. I have no particular speciality as a Marx scholar. Is it so suspicious that I didn't just change the subject and talk about something I'm not really going to be the best person to talk about? (My impression is that Spivak's Marxism is impressionistic, but I'm not the one to demonstrate that point by point.)

Posted by: jholbo | Apr 24, 2006 10:54:08 AM

Interesting post, az. I'm glad that you pointed out and linked to the moments of Spivak dismissal in this 'discussion.' For me, your post suggests that difficulty is not the issue--it seems a different kind of dismissal, one possibly linked to sex and race, one that doesn't want to hear/acknowledge some voices/ As Steve Shaviro points out, the text is not particularly difficult even as it does rely on specific references.

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 24, 2006 11:02:56 AM

My impression is that Spivak's Marxism is impressionistic

And your impression is, methinks, very wrong.

But why you opt for pursuing this as an assertion (of Spivak's lack) rather than acquaint yourself of, say, the debates that underpin "Scattered Speculations" (from Althusser to Derrida to Baudrillard to Goux to Negri to Lacan and more besides) before you assume the gesture of dismissal/critic is precisely why there is something to be explained regarding your and others' disinclination to talk about something other than tone and style.

Which makes it kind of dull for those of us who would prefer to move beyond the anxieties that 'difficult' texts seem to provoke, for some.

Posted by: s0metim3s | Apr 24, 2006 12:23:12 PM

Interesting assertion, s0metim3s. I remember, from a discussion of Spivak's Marxism unlinked to questions of style in Jon's and Nate's posts, that you showed yourself to be highly confused about what was being said. Are those who are inclined to "move beyond" questions of style (interesting phrasing of a binary, there) thereby assumed to understand what they're talking about?

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 24, 2006 12:39:58 PM

John: I have no particular speciality as a Marx scholar. Is it so suspicious that I didn't just change the subject and talk about something I'm not really going to be the best person to talk about? (My impression is that Spivak's Marxism is impressionistic, but I'm not the one to demonstrate that point by point.)

Weeeelll.... I'm no Marx scholar either, but I had a crack at it.

The preoccupation with style obscures the obvious: that, evidently, some of "Scattered Speculations" is comprehensible and maybe even useful in terms of a Marxian critique of value. If your impression is merely your impression, why make the claim? Or if you want the claim to sound like more than hot air, then get in there and demonstrate it point by point.

Posted by: az | Apr 24, 2006 1:04:52 PM

Jodi: "For me, your post suggests that difficulty is not the issue--it seems a different kind of dismissal, one possibly linked to sex and race, one that doesn't want to hear/acknowledge some voices"

By all means, let's further examine this connection to sex, race, and dismissal. To my knowledge, the form of "dismissal" that sparked the symposium was connected to the phrase "Higher Eclecticism", which in turn in connected with two specific essays that could be characterized as dismissive of the work of Eagleton and Zizek -- both white males, I believe. Someone who objected to the concept of the Higher Eclecticism said that Butler should be considered; others who also objected to this concept disagreed with Butler and suggested Spivak as a sort of cognate. az points out the connection between Butler and Spivak. Who, exactly, is making this connection?

And Jodi, what would be the reaction if someone who criticized Spivak's work posted an anecdote about her sex life? Wouldn't this be seen as evidence of such a connection? Certainly the Butler linkage would not go unnoticed: comments like "Now that's what I call eclecticism" assert it.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 24, 2006 1:29:46 PM

(Careful Rich, methinks you conform to the stereotype of hysteria too quickly, and may cause someone to ask if the performance is maybe meant to be so tiredly ironic, &c.)

Posted by: T.S. | Apr 24, 2006 4:07:43 PM

Rich--I don't quite follow you. My sense of az's post was that az was setting out some very specific, rather odd dismissals of Spivak and Butler, dismissals that seem linked to not reading them or taking them seriously and that seem to have a specific dimension of race and sex (ethnicity/sexuality).

I'm not sure what you mean by linking to the haloscan comments--Jon had said something to Scott in that thread about swapping anecdotes, so I threw one in. The anecdote wasn't connected to a point or anything so I don't get what you are trying to say here. I would think that making a theoretical point on the basis of such an anecdote would be a very risky venture and would quite likely be inappropriate. I can, for example, think of inappropriate remarks about specifities of the bodies (faces, actually) of some very mainstream white male philosophers and their theories, but this kind of remark is pretty lowbrow and not analytically very useful.

But maybe I've misunderstood you?

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 24, 2006 4:48:54 PM

It was clear when this started that the assertion "People who have a problem with Spivak's writing do so because of her sex and/or race" was bound to be made. It's very predictable. So there is a certain element of tired irony, yes.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 24, 2006 5:09:18 PM

Jodi, would you mind specifying which specific, rather odd dismissals you're talking about? For instance, do you mean the link to "Eating at Gayatri's", by Craig?

As for "The anecdote wasn't connected to a point or anything so I don't get what you are trying to say here" -- really. The first anecdote that just happens to come to your mind about Spivak, and it has nothing to do with anything about your reaction to Spivak's work? No theoretical revelations at all; it would even be "inappropriate" to see this reaction of yours as indicative of anything?

Hmm. Maybe I'm, in turn, misunderstanding you. Because if someone else had come out with that anecdote, it sure seems like it would be taken as evidence of az's thesis.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 24, 2006 5:42:24 PM

Rich--again, in the thread on posthegemony, Scott had said something Spivak's writing in his book and the word anecdote reminded me of the little story (I got my PhD at Columbia, so this isn't particularly far fetched.) It doesn't make sense re her work and, as I said, wasn't connected to a comment on it.

In the az post, I had in mind the link to holbo on conference hopping superstars and the link to the stuff about food. The larger gesture of inclusion around "bad academic writing" which wasn't simply made in the az post but has been floating around in the conversation for a while works as well. But the first two make sense to me, particularly in the way that they seem to linger (as in az's example of the 1999 award circulating stuff).

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 24, 2006 6:23:19 PM

Jodi, would you mind specifying which specific, rather odd dismissals you're talking about? For instance, do you mean the link to "Eating at Gayatri's", by Craig?

It would be strange for me to discover that I was read as dismissing Spivak. If there was any dismissal -- and Kotsko is free to point out the irony -- it is my dismissal of those unwilling to engage with her text; those who are relunctant, so to speak, to "smell what the Spivak is cooking".

(I'd also point to a different articulation: the pre-occupation on Holbo's blog with what I, a vegetarian, take to be extremely repulsive food -- pig's head, salmon pate, etc -- and his relunctance to transfer his taste for eclectic "food" to "eclectic" thought.)

Posted by: Craig | Apr 24, 2006 6:25:31 PM

It may well make more sense to consider az's point about the impossibility of branding and the urge to discipline. These connect with circulation and value and their discontinuties--so, that what appears as an ease as circulation in one sense (celebrity) is accompanied by a kind of stopping or failure or attempt to control/tax (speaking as marked). I think az's points here are interesting and worth thinking about rather than reducing into soundbites (into precisely the brand names az criticizes and uses as a way of thinking about the question of value in the text).

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 24, 2006 6:44:07 PM

Thanks for specifying, Jodi. From your description of which links you were referring to in az's post, they appear to be this sentence:

"While both Spivak and Butler may be geographically mobile, as conference-hopping academic superstars, Butler is forever freeze-framed as the blinking butt of a frathouse joke awards night, and Spivak is constantly equated with exotic food, [...]"

The first link is to a post of Amardeep's. You wrote that this was one of the links to "some very specific, rather odd dismissals of Spivak and Butler, dismissals that seem linked to not reading them or taking them seriously and that seem to have a specific dimension of race and sex (ethnicity/sexuality)." Would you mind specifying which dimension of Amardeep's post concerns ethnicity/sexuality?

The second link, is, as I thought, to Craig's post. I think that I can understand part of your reasoning there. az complained about people analogizing Spivak's work to exotic food; much of Craig's post is a set of food metaphors for Spivak's work, and he makes the same comparison in the comment above (eclectic food as electic thought, Spivak's work as pig's head dish). In addition, Craig's post noteably didn't really address Spivak's work in itself -- Amish's reaction was "Is anyone going to comment on the text?" So I think that I understand what you mean there.

We don't appear to be communicating well about the anecdote bit. Your assertion of the unconnection to anything of why you heard the anecdote as rumor in the first place, why you thought it the most entertaining Spivak anecdote, and why people reacted as they did puzzles me, theoretically. Didn't az write about memes/stories going around the Internet, and make the same connection to sexuality that you refer to above? You seem to be saying that since you did not later dismiss Spivak's work, the connection in this case does not pertain. Can we agree that if, John, say, had been found to make the same remark before the symposium, that it would be held to be quite relevant? And if so, I ask once again: who is making the connection here?

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 24, 2006 7:26:07 PM

The second link, is, as I thought, to Craig's post. I think that I can understand part of your reasoning there. az complained about people analogizing Spivak's work to exotic food; much of Craig's post is a set of food metaphors for Spivak's work, and he makes the same comparison in the comment above (eclectic food as electic thought, Spivak's work as pig's head dish).

I didn't compare Spivak's work to a pig's head dish, but thanks for trying. Instead, I wondered if Spivak was required to, so to speak, prepare a dish for her guests that they enjoy; in this case, a pig's head. I also throw out an "Extra Value Meal" and foie gras from the Boxwood Cafe as other meals a hostess might be required to prepare for a finicky guest.

If we are to believe Jon, the answer might be the second.

To be clear: is the reader expected to read what is written (that is, does the author's style trump the reader's preference) or is the author supposed to write to her audience (that is, does the reader's preference trump the author's style). Food and cooking, of course, go along well with reading and writing -- we, afterall, digest what is published in digests. Or, we find the essay indigestable and, thus, unpalatable.

Posted by: Craig | Apr 24, 2006 8:10:15 PM

Rich--here is a question for you: what do you think the anecdote means or points to or might indicate? What kind of link or relevance are you implying, particularly since you find it impossible to take me at my word? So, spell out what you think is going on, your suspicions, or recognize it as an anecdote (potentially apocryphal).

To be clear: other than Scott's story on the margins, it's the only anecdote I can recall. It may not be particularly entertaining, but I found her boldness really inspiring and cool.

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 24, 2006 9:41:49 PM

Rich, the question is still begging, irrespective - or perhaps because - of the implication that confusion might be unrelated to questions of languages and what passes for or is valued as knowledge.

I have no idea why you think I was posing a 'binary' between style and argument. Seems to me, the claim that Spivak's writing is an empty performance does just that.

Posted by: s0metim3s | Apr 24, 2006 10:59:24 PM

Jodi, of course I take your word that it's an anecdote. As for whether it's *just* an anecdote, that is a degree of charitability that would clearly not be granted to anyone who disagreed with Spivak. You pointed, in specific, to Amardeep as writing one of two examples of posts that you thought "[set] out some very specific, rather odd dismissals of Spivak and Butler, dismissals that seem linked to not reading them or taking them seriously and that seem to have a specific dimension of race and sex (ethnicity/sexuality)." For the purposes of this characterization, it was not necessary for Amardeep's post to have any easily discerneable dimension of concern with ethnicity/sexuality -- at least you haven't pointed one out. It was sufficient that he was dismissive. Yet your anecdote, which explicitly concerns sexuality, is taken to be meaningless because you are not dismissive of her work.

I'll be more clear about what I think this means. az wrote:

"It's also a context in which white, male middle-class subjects always already inhabit unmarkedness. They are not required to speak for anyone except themselves. They are almost always permitted the great invisible privilege of "just expressing an opinion.""

Who is denying Spivak the great invisible privilege of "just expressing an opinion", here? Why, you are. You and az are claiming that dismissal of her work may be motivated by "a dimension of race and sex (ethnicity/sexuality)" instead of because of the characteristics of her work as text. She is not "unmarked", because you are marking her. In fact, every such connection so far suggested has come back to someone who approves, in general, of Spivak's work. Why do you think that az refers to "painting himself into a corner" above? Because he was setting up for an attack based on Spivak being chosen for critique because of race/sex, and then was informed that the choice of Spivak was due to Matt and Jon. Why do you think that you refer to Spivak's purported posting of her list of partners as "boldness really inspiring and cool"? I would bet that you wouldn't think so if we were discussing Eagleton, say -- instead it would be seen as a sign of creepiness. Why do you think that in a discussion of stories and memes that people like to repeat, you can't seem to wonder about why that anecdote about Spivak is the only interesting one that you were told and can remember? I'm not saying that you're doing this *consciously*, of course.

For your own purposes, there is a Spivak-author of this text, inseperable from it, that you must construct. Because you wish to blame dismissal on "a specific dimension of race and sex (ethnicity/sexuality)", you must create such a dimension. You don't find this to be theoretically interesting?

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 24, 2006 11:28:28 PM

No.

Posted by: Matt | Apr 24, 2006 11:36:11 PM

No, again.

Gee, I didn't even sleep for very long. I'm not even going to try to 'defend' myself here' I have much better things to do with my time. On food and cooking: the cooking reference is initiated in "Scattered Speculations"; and yet, there have been multiple significations at work about cooking, food, palatability, eating etc and not all of them have to do with that particular scene. Some, I think, reflect the politics of consumption of an 'exotic' other. Maybe I was really referring to Terry Eagleton, who knows. I do wonder how Rich and John can be so unreflective as to not see the gendered/raced markers of their desire to send the food, and Spivak herself, Spivak 'back to the kitsch/en'.

Posted by: az | Apr 25, 2006 1:10:15 AM

Well, I've thrown another anecdote into the ring.

Actually, I don't think that Rich is totally out of line here, though he's perhaps pushing too hard and in the wrong direction. It is interesting that we (and I mean a very broad we here) often resort to anecdotes about critical theorists. Perhaps this is a mode of humanizing them. Perhaps it's no more than upmarket Hello style gossip. Perhaps it's close to groupie-dom (and, yes, I'm aware of the sexualizing and gendering work of that metaphor.) And if it's our anecdote, then there's also something self-inflating about its retelling. But it surely can also be a way of dismissing the theory or the writing itself.

But maybe the same goes for (more or less) famous intellectuals more generally. The general soap opera of the academy, its petty resentments and scant rewards.

Anyhow, it's certainly worth a discussion. But again, Rich, I'm not sure you're going about that discussion in the most effective manner right here.

Posted by: Jon | Apr 25, 2006 4:16:07 AM

Jon: "Actually, I don't think that Rich is totally out of line here, though he's perhaps pushing too hard and in the wrong direction."

Thank you, Jon. A characterization of "pushing too hard and in the wrong direction" is far better than any that I had expected. But -- I really do find it interesting that statements which would otherwise certainly be fitted into az's/Jodi's theories (Matt's choice of Spivak, Craig's exotic food metaphors, Jodi's anecdote, etc.) are removed from consideration based on their categorization as "not attached to someone advocating dismissal of work". It's as if internalized racism / sexism / orientalism never existed... alternatively, of course, the theory could be wrong. It's not like anyone has yet identified the dimension of race/sex (ethnicity/sexuality) concern in specific dismissers' writing, other than a use of food metaphor. But consistency really requires one or the other, doesn't it?

az, I made a specific argument that Spivak's "Scattered Speculations" paper, by setting up an idealist/materialist binary and then saying that it was going to focus solely on a materialist predication of the subject, avoided engagement with the then-current economic theory of marginal utility, a subjective concept which has replaced/subsumed concepts of value in neoclassical economics. Because of this lack of engagement, I claimed, Spivak's paper could not progress to real critique, and therefore resulted in kitsch that surrounded a few observations that everyone agreed with (capitalism's need for the comprador theater, etc.) with a surrounding scaffolding that rejustified these rather obvious points without developing them into a theoretical structure that could stand against Keynes, say, rather than Goux. If you'd like to find a gendered/raced marker it that argument, go ahead.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 25, 2006 8:54:51 AM

Rich,

I don't think that reversing the terms and having a male academic list the women he'd slept with on the door of his office works--it ignores the social context wherein multiple partners were a male privilege and a sign that a woman was 'loose.' It is likely that I remember the Spivak anecdote because it inverts the standard order and says that far from being loose she is the one who is going to "pin down" or pin up (on the door) the men. Admittedly, this happened nearly 20 years ago and in some contexts things have changed, but for the women graduate students at the time, this was pretty cool and bold stuff.

And, to me, that Spivak was the one doing the pinning resonates with Armdeep's frustation at not being able to pin her down. I should say that overall I thought his post was a terrific discussion of blogging and theory (and I posted it to my delicious links)--but it wasn't addressing Spivak's argument and this is what I took the focus of az's point to be.

"Just an anecdote"--this depends on context: is one making the point within a larger reading or as a throwaway remark? Jon comes closest I think we he notes that telling such anecdotes is a way of trying to elevate oneself, to position oneself as close or near to one of the greats. I don't think of the anecdote I mentioned as one of 'bringing down or humiliating'--because of the way it circulated when I was in graduate school. I'll add that other stories of the feminist stars who were changing academia also circulated at the time and that they had similar elements of sexuality, boldness, and audacity that were linked to how we thought of them as boldly shaking up the academy, as opening up a space where women didn't have to play by old rules but were making new, more flexible and adaptable ones.

There are clearly different ways of "marking" and/or introducing/considering sexuality and ethnicity. Sometimes one speaks deliberately and specifically from a sexed/raced position. Sometimes one may attempt to erase these markers. Sometimes these markers are forced upon one. Sometimes they are erased. It is still too common in academia that someone with say, Iranian parents, is expected to have more to say about Iran than Norway even if that person's scholarship focuses on Norway. It is still the case that African American scholars are expected to say something about race--in ways that white scholars are not. To refer to these expectations and ask about them, I think, is not to create a dimension of ethnicity and race but to consider how that dimension is at work, where, and in what context.

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 25, 2006 3:43:50 PM

Jodi, I understand (and did understand previously) that you thought of this as an empowering anecdote. But that is the same narrative that you are claiming underlies dismissal, right? "Their" dismissal is an inversion of "your" empowerment. But it's the same story, hinging on Spivak's (in this case) sexuality rather than on Spivak's work. I also note that now that I've suggested the idea, you have integrated the anecdote into your theoretical understanding: "Spivak was the one doing the pinning resonates with Amardeep's frustation at not being able to pin her down." See? The repeated claim that this was a meaningless, not connected to anything anecdote now seems like resistance, just as Craig's careful explanation about how his food metaphors were not at all the same as the food metaphors that az was talking about was resistance. The anecdote was a narrative that was literally the first thing that you wrote about when you heard that you'd be considering Spivak's work.

So again, what I'm saying is that perhaps Spivak seems to have this particular resonance for her admirers, but not her detractors. People who are enthusiastic about Spivak, as the various wrap-ups have mentioned that they are, seem to feel that she fits into this reverse-racism/sexism story; people who don't like her work don't seem to really be invested in it. Therefore the people who are enthusiastic about her work are the "carriers" of it: the reason that you impose this view onto essays, like Amardeep's, which show no sign of a dimension of race/sex (ethnicity/sexuality) concern is because you *want* such essays to show such a concern as an explanation of dismissal. That would reinforce your idea of the way that things should be.

But it has as little to do with Spivak's work, or the reactions to it by those who consider the work for itself, as any other internalized societal set of binaries.

(Note: isn't it heteronormativity that you assume that Spivak's list was one of (solely) men, or that an inverse list would be one of (solely) women?)

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 25, 2006 7:07:02 PM

Rich,
Yes--it is heteronormative: I wrote 'everyone' but in the later exchanges remembered thinking men. And, I don't know where the errors are, then, in my poor recollection of a 20 year old likely apocryphal anecdote. Was it everyone or every man? Was the mistake in that I wrote it in a gender neutral way initially but was assuming men or that I wrote it in a gender neutral way when the list was specifically not neutral? I don't know. And, was the presumption underlying the writing heterosexist in presuming men as partners or less heterosexist and more, say, radical feminist in presuming men as being mocked on the list?

It's weird how you twist things around, Rich: I was responding by taking your point (or, Jon's improvement of it) about the anecdote back into my thinking about the posts, wondering whether it would work or not. And, I was struck by the phrase 'pinning down' in a way that I hadn't been before, precisely because of the anecdote. Why is my engagement here necessarily a sign of a prior resistance? I don't find that persuasive at all--why not just a new step, a taking into consideration?

What is interesting to me is how invested you are in guaranteeing the complete impossibility of race or sex inflecting the views of dismissals. It seems that you must fight against this possibility at all costs.

In fact, your position seems to be akin to one that says that to mention race or sex is to be a carrier of discrimination, a view that would necessarily foreclose the possibility of ever considering race or sex.

Posted by: Jodi | Apr 25, 2006 8:37:12 PM

Again, magpie-like, let me pick on the tidbits here that interest me, though once more I suspect that this thread is perhaps not the place for their full elaboration. Also I do often find myself wanting to do something productive with your commentary, Rich, rather than accepting the confrontationalism that so often frames such conversations. I'm also interested in the psychoanalitic drift of your own reading of these comments, though I again I disagree with your interpretations.

But here's my tidbit: "I understand (and did understand previously) that you thought of this as an empowering anecdote. But that is the same narrative that you are claiming underlies dismissal, right?"

What we have are two readings of the anecdotal style, and you're trying to press their apparent contradiction.

One, which points out the way in which the recourse to anecdote is so often a means of dismissal, of trivialization, of not treating (usually) a woman or other minority scholar or theorist as a scholar or theorist. In other words, it's a way of marking their difference, and implicitly excluding them on that grounds. I take that to be part of az's original point. And I agree, as I hinted in my reference to all this talk of Spivak's "difficulty": it carries the implication that she is somehow a "difficult" woman, awkward, a diva, not worth engaging seriously. Again, I agree essentially with the notion that there has been something in, for instance, John's posts that has played into this dismissal. He doesn't like her "style." So he won't read her seriously. But there are no doubt better examples of such attitudes elsewhere, too.

On the other hand, what Jane Gallop terms "anecdotal theory" is sometimes claimed as a mode of empowerment, as a way of thinking differently, of welcoming and stressing the "marked" nature of any scholarly or theoretical intervention. It's a refusal of the claim to opacity/transparency (where the personal is opaque and so the writing is transparent) that is otherwise the dominant model of doing academic business. It's a means of bringing to the center the unofficial knowledges that always circulate in the margins. It might be seen as taking stories or other forms of semi-subaltern knowledges seriously. (I hope that's at least part of the point of my own anecdotal post.)

You suggest that holding on to both perspectives on the anecdote is some kind of disabling contradiction. I, like Jodi, disagree. But I do agree with you that there is some tension there. And it might be usefully explored. But perhaps not here and now.

Posted by: Jon | Apr 25, 2006 8:41:03 PM

All right, one more comment then:

"What is interesting to me is how invested you are in guaranteeing the complete impossibility of race or sex inflecting the views of dismissals. It seems that you must fight against this possibility at all costs."

Not at all, Jodi. I asked you to point out where in Amardeep's essay you saw evidence for race or sex inflecting the view of dismissal. Had there been such evidence that you had pointed out, of course I'd acknowledge it. Had you claimed a concern with *class* in Amardeep's dismissal, for instance, those tropes are all over it -- the concern with Spivak's plane travel, name dropping, self-absorption. But a dismissal of Spivak from a class standpoint doesn't fit your narrative, so you can't see it.

Jon, I agree that frequently anecdotes are a "means of bringing to the center the unofficial knowledges that always circulate in the margins." That's why I originally noticed Jodi's. So let's look at your anecdote, for instance: what knowledge does it bring to the center? What story does it tell? It's an academic-celebration story, one of knowledge coming together from every direction, from the past, from the family, from the margins and all over the world, from small pieces of paper and a network of relationships, all to say that learned people are most important and that temporal power is limited. As such, it's an expression of ideology, a bit of propaganda to attempt to reinforce new relationships made through a symposium that you hope will continue past its end. I think that it's quite appropriate to that purpose. Similarly, Scott has a Spivak anecdote that he likes to tell about Spivak writing in one of his books, and his feelings, as a grad student, when he noticed that she as a famous professor had made notations disagreeing with his notations. Those are standard academic stories.

Jodi's anecdote also brings knowledge from the margins. In particular, it helps to bring what I think is the best explanation for why people are seeing a dimension of race /sex (ethnicity/sexuality) concern in particular essays that do not seem to reflect that dimension.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 25, 2006 10:00:57 PM

Ha! You're a funny old chap, Rich, and master of the reductive, unsympathetic reading: "learned people are most important [. . .] an expression of ideology, a bit of propaganda." Well, perhaps in part, but in a pretty loose sense, and not much more than anything else is. (And, yes, I did read your sentence that follows.)

Anyhow, I'll leave it at that for the moment. Happy trails!

Posted by: Jon | Apr 25, 2006 10:23:15 PM

As you wrote previously, Jon, a precis can't say everything. But given that the anecdote is centered on "a king is worshipped in his own kingdom, a learned man everywhere", which is repeated in title, midstory, and end, I don't think my summary is too reductive.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 25, 2006 10:43:01 PM

Jon writes: "Again, I agree essentially with the notion that there has been something in, for instance, John's posts that has played into this dismissal. He doesn't like her "style." So he won't read her seriously."

And Jon calls Rich "master of the reductive, unsympathetic reading". Good heavens, Jon, you are too quick to cede this high ground to Rich. Have more confidence in your own capacities.

I rather missed all the fun. But perhaps a late response is in order to az, who writes: "The preoccupation with style obscures the obvious: that, evidently, some of "Scattered Speculations" is comprehensible and maybe even useful in terms of a Marxian critique of value. If your impression is merely your impression, why make the claim? Or if you want the claim to sound like more than hot air, then get in there and demonstrate it point by point."

It seems to me rather silly to fault my post for what it does not do, without making the case for any flaws or problems concerning what it does. I attempt a close reading of the beginning and the end of her piece, in an attempt to draw out the (to my mind) unsatisfactory character of the argumentative style. It's nothing wonderful, what I have to say, but I think it's basically right. Of course - at a cost of 20,000 words or so - I could have continued the exercise throughout the whole piece. But can it really be maintained that the problem with my post was that it wasn't 20,000 words long? Or that it wasn't a different post altogether? For example, am I allowed to put the shoe on the other foot? Can I, in fairness, fulminate indignantly at anyone who DIDN'T attempt a close reading of Spivak's introduction and conclusion on the grounds that at least I tried, whereas they didn't?

The only other objection to my post seems to be that my focus on Spivak's 'style' - i.e. her manner of argument - is itself inherently suspect. But, as I have said, this is in fact what I was invited to discuss, not the intricacies of Marxism. Can it really be such a terrible fault that I (as Matt put it at the time) 'graciously' accepted an invitation to discuss some points I made about 'Higher Eclecticism' before, and coordinate them with Spivak? I do admit that it might have been better if I had produced some sort of 'here I take my stand' manifesto about my critique of Theory, in terms of this Spivak stuff. But I didn't find it inspiring, in that way, nor did I have the time. I hardly think the way to address that is to hallucinate that what I wrote was a BAD 'here I take my stand' manifesto, as Adam K. seems to be assuming these days.

Oh well. I'm glad that most folks seem to have had a good time. That's nice. An event with so many contributors is an admirable thing.

Posted by: jholbo | Apr 26, 2006 3:48:30 PM

Goodness, John. I'm not surprised that discussion of your contribution should center around what you didn't do, as that's a major focus of the post itself. You start off, for instance, by saying that you're "feeling too good-natured to summon the sort of disgruntlement the occasion might seem to demand of my nature." You go on to tell us that you "semi-committed to setting everyone straight about [your] use of ‘Higher Eclecticism’ in this post; but frankly [you] just can’t force [your]self."

Which, as I say elsewhere, is just fine. I don't see these commitments as so binding.

But nice, I suppose, in some ways, to see you're back to your disgruntled self, sufficient to pull out some rather bizarre snark there at the beginning of your comment.

Posted by: Jon | Apr 26, 2006 4:27:35 PM

I was snarking on Rich's behalf, not so much my own, Jon. It seems to me that Rich's contributions to this thread have been quite reasonable - but perhaps I could have registered that point more straightforwardly.

Posted by: jholbo | Apr 26, 2006 4:53:02 PM

Perhaps you could have registered your point more along the lines that I chose to, for instance when I wrote "Actually, I don't think that Rich is totally out of line here," and when I wrote "I do often find myself wanting to do something productive with your commentary, Rich," along with other attempts to read his contributions sympathetically and unreductively.

Posted by: Jon | Apr 26, 2006 5:09:53 PM

Since I'm being talked about, I'll comment again. Jon, I do appreciate your attempts to pick the scattered nuggets of gold out of the mire of my comments, really. But let me re-quote one of your paragraphs from above:

"One, which points out the way in which the recourse to anecdote is so often a means of dismissal, of trivialization, of not treating (usually) a woman or other minority scholar or theorist as a scholar or theorist. In other words, it's a way of marking their difference, and implicitly excluding them on that grounds. I take that to be part of az's original point. And I agree, as I hinted in my reference to all this talk of Spivak's "difficulty": it carries the implication that she is somehow a "difficult" woman, awkward, a diva, not worth engaging seriously. Again, I agree essentially with the notion that there has been something in, for instance, John's posts that has played into this dismissal. He doesn't like her "style." So he won't read her seriously. But there are no doubt better examples of such attitudes elsewhere, too."

When you write a paragraph like that one, you forfeit any ability to complain about other people's unsympathetic readings. You are blaming John's dismissal of Spivak on race/sex concerns, absent any hint of these concerns in John's actual post. In fact, the word "difficulty", which you are using as proxy for such concerns, doesn't even appear in John's post about Spivak, nor does John refer to her concepts as being difficult. (I considered, earlier, quoting all the references in this symposium to Spivak's "difficulty". Guess what? They're all on Long Sunday.) John, in fact, engaged more seriously with Spivak's content than did many of the posts here. You have constructed a rather serious accusation of prejudice out of no textual evidence.

And, I'll be more frank: you (in the larger sense of "you", to mean the various people who have agreed with this line of critique) seem to have no self-consciousness about your own internalized prejudices at all. Should I have wished to apply similar concerns to your anecdote, I would have pointed out that it is also about Spivak as orientalist carrier of age-old Indian wisdom. And you're familiar with these concepts, you have to be. But for you to make these serious claims about other people based on no textual evidence is OK, because they "dismissed" Spivak's work, while your own texts go unexamined because you "approved" of it. Some of your best friends are X, right?

It's just really poor theorizing, in the scholarly sense of that word. If you want to call me a funny old chap who always comes up with unsympathetic, reductive readings, go ahead -- I'm not a scholar, and funny old chap is at least better than "Acolyte", which some Long Sundayans previously tried out for me. But look to what you're writing, really, and consider it.

Posted by: Rich Puchalsky | Apr 26, 2006 7:45:51 PM

Oh, Rich, now you really are going too far. I forfeit nothing.

The very little I said about John's post, as also quoted by you, was the following: "I agree essentially with the notion that there has been something in, for instance, John's posts that has played into this dismissal. He doesn't like her 'style.' So he won't read her seriously." Which, by the way, I immediately followed up with "But there are no doubt better examples of such attitudes elsewhere, too." So I turned to John's concern with style, not difficulty, and said next to nothing at all about either race or gender, except in so far as I hinted that a more thorough reading might see a connection between the general phenomenon that I identified, and John's post as a poor example of something like that phenomenon.

Though speaking personally, I'm not that interested in a protracted reading of John's post. I don't see it as being particularly productive for what I, at least, am trying to do.

As for your reading of my own anecdote, I'm glad it is becoming a little less reductive. And I'll agree absolutely that among the possible themes it conveys is that of some kind of folk wisdom, transmitted via Spivak from her mother. That's rather central to the story. And indeed, there are romantic, nostalgic, and no doubt also Orientalist aspects to that conception. No wonder Spivak herself usually laughs at Ma when she comes out with that saying.

(Many caveats to add, however: I know nothing about Spivak's mother, beyond what Gayatri's own brief mention tells me; as far as I understand, Spivak's family is Brahmin, and I'm sure that that resonates for Indian readers of the story. In other words, I suspect that Spivak's mother is far from some subaltern figure, but all this is to say I'm wary of pushing my little anecdotage too far.)

When I gave my own three glosses on the story, I wasn't trying to close off others. And now you've given two more. Fine. More than fine: grand! In other words, I'm happy to go with your readings of my posts, all the more so when they are undertaken with a little sympathy and openness. I'd take it to be returning the courtesy I intend in my reading of your comments.

Posted by: Jon | Apr 26, 2006 8:03:21 PM

Oh, and just one thing, and then I really will leave it... Rich, I wouldn't claim to be picking up "scattered nuggets of gold out of the mire of [your] comments." I don't want to characterize either your comments as mire or the nuggets I take as gold. To return to my text (however flimsy it might be): I compared myself to a magpie, a species notoriously untrustworthy in their sense of value. I'm just looking for shiny things; milk bottle tops and the like are what fascinate me.

Posted by: Jon | Apr 26, 2006 8:17:08 PM

I haven't been reading this for two days now. This coach is turning into a pumpkin.

Posted by: az | Apr 27, 2006 3:42:03 AM

Still, you have to admire (or, whatever) -Rich's dogged determination to defeat us! He's now calling this thread "representative" of the event entire. People really are so funny.

Posted by: Matt | Apr 28, 2006 6:47:42 PM

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