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A (Not So) Startling Accusation
President Carter's old National Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, is not someone known for his dovish
inclinations regarding foreign policy. In fact, he has publicly admitted that he advocated for CIA support of the mujaheddin before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that such a policy was designed to prompt an invasion. It was hoped that this would lead the Soviets into a Vietnam style quagmire, overstretch their military and ultimately lead to a humiliating defeat.
So when Brezinski recently testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee one might be curious as to what he thinks the Bush administration is preparing for Iran:
Brzezinski told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "the final destination on this downhill track is likely to be a head-on conflict with Iran and with much of the world of Islam." Brzezinski predicts "some provocation in Iraq or a terrorist act in the U.S. blamed on Iran; culminating in a 'defensive' U.S. military action against Iran that plunges a lonely America into a spreading and deepening quagmire eventually ranging across Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan." ( as quoted by Paul Craig Roberts)
I do not find Brezinski's suggestion all that surprising - a student of American history can think of lots of examples where a staged attack or useful accident are used to justify war (Gulf of Tonkin, "Remember the Maine"). What impresses me is that someone of Brezinski's insider status is suggesting that the current US government is looking for an excuse to expand the Iraq war into a larger regional conflict. Clearly there is division within the foreign policy establishment (and the ruling elite in general) regarding what is happening today - even a traditional cold war hawk like Brezinski thinks the current path is suicidal. But will this make a difference? Will enough people believe that Bush & Company are going to fabricate a pretext for world war? And even if they know this is happening, will anyone stop it?
Jodi Dean has spent the last several months at icite arguing for the collapse of symbolic efficiency and its impact on political discourse. She recently presented a paper on 9/11 conspiracy theories that directly addresses the issues raised by Brezinski's testimony. Here is a former National Security Advisor who has gone on record suggesting that the US government will stage some sort of event, or falsely attribute a terrorist act, to Iran in order to justify war. When someone outside official circles speculates in this manner, they are usually dismissed as "conspiracy nut jobs." But Jodi correctly points out that what makes one a paranoid conspiracy theorist is not the simple assertion of a conspiracy - after all, the official version of 9/11 describes how a group of Islamic fundamentalists conspired to hijack four planes and crash them into buildings. But when an "outsider," a non-expert, posits a conspiracy contrary to mainstream commonsense, one that involves members of our own government, secretly implementing a covert operation, killing thousands of their own citizens, well this is beyond the pale.
But Zbigniew Brezinski is an insider, one who has been personally involved in planning black ops around the globe. Does his assertion have more weight? Is he a "conspiracy theorist" in the pejorative sense? This where Jodi's insight is really striking - by exposing the criminality that is inherent in US foreign policy, Brezinski seems to undermine the legitimacy of government. But with the decline in symbolic efficiency, who is one to believe? Since most of us are skeptical of government pronouncements anyway, what impact does his revelation really have? It either confirms our worst suspicions or others reject it as partisan demagoguery. Irregardless, it becomes part of the background noise of the daily news cycle.
Jodi's suggestion is that the revelation of more facts, more information, does not get us out of the current impasse but actually prevents anything from changing. She believes that "Breaking out of the trap of 9/11 will require shedding (traversing) our fantastic investments in simplicity, meaning, and righteousness...Even the accusation that the other side remains invested in them. We can't treat - or condone the treatment of - 9/11 as something sacred, as a key turning point or event."
I generally agree with Jodi that 9/11 largely defines American politics across the spectrum. And clearly the conditions for credibility across different discursive communities has largely eroded. Bringing this insight to Brezinski's comments, it is not enough for an informed expert to publicly expose the current Junta's plans for destroying the middle east. We must some how break out of this impasse. But short of catastrophe, or economic collapse, I cannot imagine how that is going to happen.
By Alain | February 11, 2007 in Current Affairs, War | Permalink
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Comments
"Jodi's suggestion is that the revelation of more facts, more information, does not get us out of the current impasse but actually prevents anything from changing."
Well, if that really is her suggestion, and if she really does want change, then the solution is surely crystal-clear: we must demand that no more facts be revealed and that no further information be released.
The government's current (unprecedented) secretiveness clearly doesn't go far enough.
So let's start a petition and send it to the White House: "Tell us less, and answeer even fewer of our questions. You are preventing change from happening."
While we're at it, let's write letters to the NYT and the WP praising them for so tactfully underreporting the remarks addressed to the Council on Foreign Relations by Carter's former National Security Advisor. Way to go, Newspaper of Record.
Jodi has already informed around one third of the US population that their persistent desire to have questions answered is evidence of paranoia ("in the Lacanian sense"). This was a useful first step towards facilitating change.
Oh, and maybe someone can tell that Cynthia McKinney to shut up and get over it already with her incessant questions to the government. (Does she count as an "insider" or an "outsider"? Is she a "conspiracy theorist" or is she not? We could ponder these fascinating questions too, while we're helping to make change possible.)
"We must some how break out of this impasse. But short of catastrophe, or economic collapse, I cannot imagine how that is going to happen"
Perhaps a Second Coming is at hand. When Jesus turns up, we can ask him for his advice on how to change things. More likely, some rough beast will simply show us a way out of this mysterious impasse, and that'll put an end to all this paranoid questioning.
Certainly, changes are afoot.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 11, 2007 2:23:55 PM
Warszawa, thanks for the sarcasm. I will not speak for Jodi but I know we have been down this road before. My point is that we could have Brezinski on the cover of the NY Times and Washington Post, and interviewed primetime on CNN and Fox, and it probably wouldn't convince the majority of Americans that the administration is going to fabricate a pretext for attacking Iran. I could be wrong, perhaps we are not that far gone, but it is at least plausible given the experience of the last six years (or perhaps even the last 30 years) that the United States is a set of fractured, and somewhat isolated communities - each choosing who it listens to for news and what they believe is within the realm of possibility. If someone thinks the democrats are a bunch of leftist, islamic fascist sympathizing, and gay loving abortionists, they are not going to give a rats ass what Brezinski has to say. Now you make think I have just created a caricature that doesn't exist, but it still makes the point - in the United States today, people get their news from sources that reconfirm their world view.
Of course that doesn't mean that it is impossible to get more people to see what is going on - nor am I suggesting that we should give up on trying. But i think analyses like Jodi's speak to the difficulty of changing "hearts and minds."
Posted by: Alain | Feb 11, 2007 3:57:33 PM
I am not going to apologise for the sarcasm, Alain. What other response is possible to this stuff, except outright anger? While American intellectuals blather on in this way -- change is impossible, information is worse than useless, realities are irrelevant, questioning is "hysterical" (but certainty is "paranoid" !) -- their government is still engaged in mass murder abroad and planning more soon.
"But i think analyses like Jodi's speak to the difficulty of changing "hearts and minds."
"Speak to"? Such analyses clearly increase the difficulty greatly. Such analyses marginalise the already marginalised. They obfuscate the obvious. They provide rationalisations for a stance of permanent, self-interested pseudo-objective passivity. They patronise the peons, who are declared to be lamentably naive in their outraged uppityness.
And then come the lamentations that nothing can be done.
Of course it's going to be difficult to change "hearts and minds" if you declare that "the revelation of more facts, more information, does not get us out of the current impasse but actually prevents anything from changing."
- Here is an extract from your last post to that thread at ICite before it was shut down:
"you [i.e. I, warszawa] point out the very real limitations to the approach - the analytic situation is impossible to "map" onto political conflict and the motivations of nations or elites is not necessarily useful.
***And I agree that the technical use of terms like psychotic or hysteric seems to pathologize all political discourse, even that which attempts to challenge the status quo***"
Posted by: Alain | February 09, 2007 at 05:07 PM
- Especially that which attempts to challenge the status quo. Indeed: only that.
So: attempts to challenge the status quo are pathologised, facts and information are declared to be irrelevant (or positively counterproductive), and then the authors of such theses wonder why change is so difficult to achieve.
It is obvious what is wrong here.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 11, 2007 4:42:40 PM
My only defense Warszawa is that I am not an intellectual. But perhaps that makes my opinions worse because I fail to see the obvious.
So Be it.
Posted by: Alain | Feb 11, 2007 5:00:13 PM
Whether you define yourself as an intellectual or not, Alain, you are clearly neither stupid nor nasty nor a Bush supporter. And at least you venture opinions, which is far braver than average in these regions of the blogosphere.
The same applies to Jodi, as I wrote four months ago:
"Alone among the regulars at Long Sunday, Jodi Dean is struggling honestly with her increasing inability to believe the Official Account of what happened on September 11th 2001."
http://qlipoth.blogspot.com/2006/11/mortgaged-left-reasons-to-be-prudent.html
That doesn't oblige me to admire or agree with everything either of you write. There are other people whose efforts I find far worthier of support:
http://qlipoth.blogspot.com/2006/10/911-press-for-truth.html
And these are among the people whose ongoing efforts are ultimately disparaged as "a psychotic clone of university discourse" and declared to be "paranoid" ("in the Lacanian sense") in Jodi's paper.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 11, 2007 5:30:08 PM
A fellow-qlipoth comments on the alleged "decline of symbolic efficiency":
"Without highly efficient symbolic function, no military order can be understood or carried out, no banking transactions can occur, no oil or real estate can be owned from afar, no wage contract can be created or enforced - no means and no motive for military aggression and massive violence can exist when the capacity of signs to refer is unreliable. Besides, Bush enjoys being stupid and may order an assault on Irene."
http://qlipoth.blogspot.com/2007/02/rampant-infantilism.html
That qlipoth is also a bit angry and does not always manage to refrain from sarcasm. Maybe the application of pejorative "Lacanian terms of art" to the allegedly paranoid peons really is a praiseworthy undertaking. Maybe it really is the job of "liberals" in academia to demonstrate that we can know nothing, and that it's hysterical ("in the Lacanian sense") to want to, and that if we could in fact know things it would merely hinder change. But if so, then I'm wondering how soon impoverishment of affect will become an indispensable prerequisite for participation in cutting-edge political discourse.
Maybe it's happened already.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 11, 2007 7:12:52 PM
February 12, 2007:
9/11 Widows Keep on Asking the Tough Questions
http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.muckrakerreport.com%2Fid358.html
***Petition***
http://www.petitiononline.com/july10/petition.html
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 12, 2007 6:40:36 AM
Warszawa, thanks for the link. I signed it.
Posted by: Alain | Feb 12, 2007 9:58:31 AM
I think it's a very big deal, not to be underestimated at all, that Brzezinski (can't spell it; mental block) has made this statement. I mean, what do participants in this discussion think about the phenomenon of Keith Olbermann? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Olbermann solves everything, anymore than Brzezinski's testimony. But these are genuine signs -- along with the increasing nervousness of our elected representatives -- of ruling class angst over the behavior of Bush and company. I think there has been a very powerful and for a while successful effort on the part of Cheney and others to flood the American political discourse with propaganda. Big, big chunks of that effort have failed (after having done a lot of damage), or stopped working after a time, and have in turn produced a backlash. Not that everything is even-steven! But also, things may not be black and white here. Think of "symbolic efficiency" on a scale. On the far left of the scale is "lots of symbolic efficiency," on the far right "not much symbolic efficiency." Where on the scale would we be now, February 12, 2007? How about in 2003? We could occupy different points on the scale at different moments in time, just like the world disaster clock. After the fall of the Soviet Union, they moved the disaster clock back 15 minutes, so we were 17 minutes away from disaster. Recently they've moved it back to 5 minutes to disaster. It's possible for things to get worse, better, worse again, and so on.
Posted by: Swifty | Feb 12, 2007 11:16:28 AM
Thanks, Alain. I just wanted to say, I'm not trying to score debating points and I don't enjoy coming down like a ton of bricks on anyone. That includes you and Jodi. The topic itself is painful to touch and scary to contemplate, but I think it'll only get more painful and scary the longer people try to talk around it.
The question is not: do *some* so-called "truthers" talk rubbish? or: are *some* so-called "truthers" hysterical or paranoid? (The answer to both questions is "yes", in my opinion too. How could it not be, when the "skeptics" now make up 37% of the US population and at least half the population of Manhattan?) But the existence of batty arguments is entirely beside the point.
The question is: where does the burden of proof lie? Why should we trust those serial liars? And how credible is the case *they've* made? If the answers are not obvious already, they should be after reading this:
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html
- or after watching that excellent film with the Jersey Widows and Paul Thompson:
http://911pressfortruth.com/
These people have been struggling in the dark for five years now. They are not mad by any definition, and they really deserve everyone's support. Especially the support of intellectuals and people with influence.
I also think Swifty is right: this astounding Brzezinski statement (to the CFR! - and then he actually repeated it to a *World Socialist Website* reporter...) is a sign that even the Old Hawks are getting decidedly worried at what this bunch might do yet. 2008 is still a long time away.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x183922
PS Iraq is hell on earth as we speak, day in day out. See today's news, or any day's news.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 12, 2007 12:18:26 PM
Swifty, I completely agree with you. I can see how the tone of my remarks gives the impression that everything is hopless, or there is no point in exposing lies. Warszawa picks up on this. I do not think it is a choice between absolute despair or activism. And I do not think Jodi's analysis precludes the idea of critical journalism, or trying to expose the lies of those in power. But I think it points to the difficulty of breaking out of the current deadlock, of making real change.
Posted by: Alain | Feb 12, 2007 12:37:03 PM
Swifty,
Could you say more about what you mean by "symbolic efficiency"? I'm intrigued. Does the phrase come from somewhere, or is it your own?
Posted by: CR | Feb 12, 2007 3:24:07 PM
Oh, is it from Zizek's Ticklish Subject?
(Isn't it funny how you start to feel bad for asking dumb questions on here - when you could simply google.)
Posted by: CR | Feb 12, 2007 3:26:59 PM
Nice post, Alain. Surely a critical position refusing point blank to take any account of the profoundly encroaching changes in our experience, in our relations (to power, to each other, and so on) brought about by late capimodernity's sea of declarative 'babble' (including the pervasive emotive sterilizing/therapy/cult of television) risks becoming more stubbornly quaint (not to mention hypocritical) than it is, say, genuinely probing. (For just one example of such a genuine probing, see Mark Greif's "Anaesthetic Ideology.") While a certain anger, on the other hand, may still be entirely appropriate.
Of course there's plenty of evidence for the "decline in symbolic efficiency" (not to be confused with just any symbolism, rather obviously). That a general decline in (particularly USian) critical capacity (by which I mean a capacity for both radical interiority and for directly present, patient, caring interpersonal relation) has accompanied this cumulative change in our "faith" in something like "a symbolic order" (evident in both a reactionary, desperate clinging, but also a new sort of alienation and homelessness) may sometimes be forgotten, or obscured, in the act of blaming purely, either one or the other. Or perhaps I should say, appearing to blame purely. In any case I think this is lamentable.
But lest all that be mistaken for something other than a blog comment, how about a link. I confess to finding the following both "good" and (in a certain sense/somewhat terrifyingly) obsolete:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8536707153900925247
Posted by: Matt | Feb 12, 2007 9:40:02 PM
"risks becoming ... stubbornly quaint (not to mention hypocritical)"
'Stubbornly quaint' my ass. If you're going to attempt condescension, it's advisable to ensure beforehand that you are in fact in an elevated position. And how 'hypocritical'? To adopt your Duktus: pray tell.
"late capimodernity's sea of declarative 'babble'"
Yes, there's certainly a lot of that about.
"While a certain anger, on the other hand, may be entirely appropriate."
This is beyond parody.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 13, 2007 5:06:23 AM
Matt writes:
"Of course there's plenty of evidence for the "decline in symbolic efficiency" "
"Of course"? Well, show me some of that allegedly plentiful evidence. Three examples of the decline of symbolic efficiency will suffice. Or two if you're struggling. Or just one will do, if that's all you can manage right now.
Meanwhile, here in stubbornly quaint Old Europe, I've been checking to see whether or not symbolic efficiency is really in decline. First thing I noticed today is that all the cars stopped at the crossing when the lights turned red, and all of them started again when the lights turned green. There wasn't a single exception. No real problem with the symbolic efficency of the traffic lights, then, or at least not here in stubbornly quaint Old Europe.
Later, in a café, I was reading the newspapers, and the weird thing was, I could actually understand them. There was a lot of information in there about the people who were burnt, blinded and dismembered in Iraq yesterday, for example. (Maybe that information is hindering change, and those stubbornly quaint Old Europeans need less of it, because many of them can't understand why US intellectuals are not speaking out, marching in their thousands and trying very hard to stop the people who started it all.) At any rate, it was all perfectly comprehensible, with one weird exception: I picked up a certain publication, and halfway down the first page, it suddenly struck me - with a terrible chill - that several of the words in it seemed completely meaningless. Had the creeping plague of symbolic inefficiency finally reached stubbornly quaint Old Europe too? Eventually, to my enormous relief, I realised that it was an Italian publication I was holding. The problem was not with the efficiency of those stubbornly quaint old Roman symbols but with the quality of my Italian. ´
I thought, 'Let this be a lesson to all of us', and got up to pay. Strange to say, the admirably-efficient waiter accepted the piece of paper I gave him, quite without demurral. Although he was but a humble peon, he seemd to recognise its symbolic value immediately. Then he gave me some round pieces of metal. They're quite nice-looking, I must say: pretty pictures on the front and the back. I think I'll use them as paperweights.
So it's over to Matt for a report on the worrying situation in North America. How are the symbols doing over there, Matt? I hope there haven't been too many pile-ups at the traffic-lights today.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 13, 2007 9:01:20 AM
Our Ljubljana correspondent says it's pandemonium there.
Still no word from the States though. Maybe somebody other than Matt would care to give us one single example of this alleged decline of symbolic efficiency? And maybe somebody would also care to venture a date for the beginning of this alleged decline. Thank you.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 13, 2007 1:01:58 PM
Warszawa, I am limited for time but I wanted to try a response. To say symbolic efficiency is in decline does not mean we cannot talk to each other about the weather, or agree about the content of the daily newspaper. But it does mean that various discursive communities do not accept the same authorities or terms for what counts as evidence. For example, if someone thinks Fox is the only tv news that is reflective of reality, they will not accept Brezinski's comments as reflecting anything other than "conspiracy nonsense." To use a hermenuetic phrase, the "horizon of meaning" is so substantially different (perhaps even incommensurable) from yours or mine that this person is very unlikely to accept any evidence that does not reconfirm their world view.
I am not suggesting that there is no "fact of the matter" when it comes to world events, economics, or politics. I am suggesting that because American politics is so fractured, it is very difficult (and perhaps impossible) for certain groups to talk to one another or validate one another's arguments. This is part of what I take Jodi to be saying in her 9/11 discussion. Whether I agree with everything she draws from this, I am not sure. But it seems to me that her analysis is touching on a genuine phenomenon.
I understand your disagreements with her line of reasoning. I respect your intellect and the passion with which you argue. But just because you do not like her use of psychoanalytic concepts, that doesn't mean she is some how complicitous with the ruling elite. Her questioning does not imply that we should throw up our hands and accept that communication is impossible. But it does point out that our public discourse is ensconced in a paradigm (my words, not hers) that stifles real change. I understand you think "pathologizing" the 9/11 truth movement is counter productive. But her analysis is just one approach and she never claims it to be exhaustive. Nor am I making such a claim when I reference her analysis.
Posted by: Alain | Feb 13, 2007 3:29:32 PM
"For example, if someone thinks Fox is the only tv news that is reflective of reality, they will not accept Brezinski's comments as reflecting anything other than "conspiracy nonsense."
Do you know this, Alain? I don't think you do. Have Brzezinski's comments ever been broadcast, honestly analysed, or even *mentioned* on Fox? That's the point. This is not an example of "the decline of symbolic efficiency" (and this is why I call this entire approach absurdly obfuscatory); it is an example of a biased right-wing propaganda organ being a a biased right-wing propaganda organ, and finding its audience. No real surprises there.
Has anyone ever heard of William Randolph Hearst? Or Goebbels? Or The Times of London (founded 1785)? Plus ca change, etc.
What annoys me more than anything else, Alain - and this is not an accusation directed against *you* - is the sheer vanity of the pretence that propaganda from the powerful is something radically, postmodernly new. Or that resisting it is impossible. Or that making an effort is more than anyone can reasonably be expected to do. - Georg Büchner risked landing in a dungeon when he published and distributed Die Hessische Landbote in 1834. Hans and Sophie Scholl risked and suffered something even worse when they published and distributed the leaflets of the White Rose in 1943. They were up against very powerful opponents, whose views were radically incommensurable with their own: I mean not just their governments, but the numerous compatriots who supported those governments.
Contemporary American academics have it *much, much, much easier* than any of those poor bastards ever did. They will not (yet) be risking death or imprisonment if they open their mouths.
And what are they doing? Much, much, much less than nothing: they are pathologising those who state the obvious - the undeniable - because doing otherwise might cost them some comfort or raise some eyebrows at work.
"To use a hermenuetic phrase, the "horizon of meaning" is so substantially different (perhaps even incommensurable) from yours or mine that this person is very unlikely to accept any evidence that does not reconfirm their world view."
You know, I think you might find that a similar situation pertained when the Europeans first landed in Australia. Or when the English first landed in Ireland. Or when the Saxons first landed in England. Or when the Greeks and the Trojans, etc. And I do belive Enkidu and Gilgamesh had their differences too. Not to mention Cain and Abel.
But maybe you want to stick with examples from America. Wasn't there a Civil War there once? I wonder how they coped.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 13, 2007 4:20:38 PM
Warszawa, again I am short on time. I suspect we will not agree on this. But I will give it a try - My fox example is actually extrapolated from real life conversations I have with hard core Republicans. We did not talk specifically about the Brezinski comments, but I have talked with them regarding the public comments made by Richard Clark, Brent Scowcroft, and Jack Murtha. I have also talked to them about fabrication and manipulation of intelligence before the Iraq War. What is striking in each of these conversations (and these are reasonably intelligent people, a few I consider my intellectual superior) is that they inevitably discredit the source of the criticism or information. This doesn't prove that they will never accept the evidence, but it is a good indication of how difficult it is to agree on even rudimentary facts.
And ofcourse, the use of propaganda is not radically new. No one here believes that. And I am not an academic but their are times I wonder if expressing even my limited contempt for what is going on puts me or my family at risk. I have no idea.
The examples you provide (Australia, Ireland, the civil war) of course ended in appropriation and genocide. Are you calling for a civil war in the United States today, an armed insurrecition in order to rescue the country from the current Junta? Perhaps that is what it would take but I am not there yet. Even if all the pertinent facts were widely known, I doubt most Americans would choose that option.
Posted by: Alain | Feb 13, 2007 4:52:38 PM
"how difficult it is to agree on even rudimentary facts."
Is this new? The psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich came up against similar problems in Vienna in the early 1930s. It didn't stop him struggling to educate people (rather than smirk at those who do), struggling to help workers, struggling to resist the forces of reaction, even if that meant (a) risking his employment prospects and (b) actually coming to blows with Nazi marchers.
No, I am not calling for an armed insurrection; it's not yet necessary. That's the point! Nobody is required to be Sophie Scholl, yet. People should be using a fast-closing window of opportunity for political action instead of spraying mud on that window as it closes.
Sophie Scholl was paranoid by Jodi's definition.
"their are times I wonder if expressing even my limited contempt for what is going on puts me or my family at risk."
Precisely. No disgrace in that. And it is admirable that you say it out loud. I doubt that anyone else on this board would have done so. At last we have the problem named by name.
This is why certain things must not be heard - and if heard, explained away. People are too frightened to move.
Maybe Hillary will save America in 2008. Or maybe, as "Conspiracy Theorist" Brzezinski has just pointed out, the current clique still has a few tricks up its sleeve. TERROR (TM) does concentrate a man's mind wonderfully, and a woman's, and a child's, especially if it's truly global. That's if they're still actually around to concentrate after the Terror has started.
P.S. I too have a family.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 13, 2007 5:29:48 PM
Warszawa, perhaps you are right - that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ruling elites and their manipulation of information. I just happen to suspect there is something more going on. And I do not think it is fair when you suggest that most intellectuals (or anyone else for that matter) are simply mouthing theories that maintain their social status -that they speak of things that will reassure themselves and their class. That is not what I was suggesting with my comments about fear for my family. I merely am pointing out that like yourself, I fear the United States is on the verge of launching the next great conflagration and most of the country is asleep. And yes the leadership wishes to supress information and those individuals that disagree with them. But I can simultaneously take the situation seriously and find theoretical approaches (like Jodi's) useful. Again, I respect the fact that you do not. I am just coming to the point where I think you and I should agree to disagree. But again, you might find that a cop out, that if the facts are faced squarely, one will see that esoteric speculation is a grand waiste of time.
I have to leave it there - I must put my children to bed. Good night.
Posted by: Alain | Feb 13, 2007 9:32:31 PM
Alain: "And I do not think it is fair when you suggest that most intellectuals (or anyone else for that matter) are simply mouthing theories that maintain their social status -that they speak of things that will reassure themselves and their class."
- Where did I suggest that "most" intellectuals do that? Nowhere. But very very clearly: some do, incessantly.
Talking of fairness: was it fair of Jodi to apply psychiatric labels to Paul Thompson and the Jersey Widows, and by extension to Cynthia McKinney and millions of others (and indeed to Sophie Scholl)? Is Jodi in any way qualified to do so? I don't think so. You may disagree. But it's certainly clear who is helped and who is hindered by her unsolicited diagnoses.
"I fear the United States is on the verge of launching the next great conflagration and most of the country is asleep."
- Some people are certainly awake. That's why certain intellectuals are busy prescribing and administering powerful soporifics to them (e.g. "the decline of symbolic efficiency").
Look at what's going on here, Alain. Look at what counts as intellectual culture. After intervening in the guise of William F. Buckley, Matt can't answer a single question I ask him. Not one. Therefore, he simply goes back and alters his original post.
In weiser Voraussicht, I preserved the original here:
https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=18174466&postID=6462469745159851415
It's no wonder Matt objects to the stubbornly quaint notion of morality. And those changes have made his grotesque original post no better; on the contrary. It is simply disgusting.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 14, 2007 8:42:43 AM
After intervening in the guise of William F. Buckley, Matt can't answer a single question I ask him. Not one.
Damn, you really got me there, mr./mrs. wars.
Posted by: Matt | Feb 14, 2007 6:13:55 PM
"Maybe somebody other than Matt would care to give us one single example of this alleged decline of symbolic efficiency?"
The decline of the union movement in the United States has deprived us of a key symbol of resistance (certainly not to be exaggerated) that was regularly turned to, previously, for a take on the condition of the working class and the effect on it of economic policies. In general the notion of class -- never very robust in the U.S. -- is expelled from discourse. The war on 'terrorism' is a symbol without a clear referent, but one which we are supposed to respond to and orient our speech and actions around. Marx and Engels talk about the dissolution of symbols in the Communist Manifesto -- "all that is solid melts into air." Senator Obama is both black and not black.
Posted by: Swifty | Feb 15, 2007 11:22:06 AM
"The decline of the union movement in the United States has deprived us of a key symbol of resistance"
- It may have deprived you, me or somebody else of a symbol. Much more obviously, and much more importantly, it has deprived actual non-symbolic workers of an actual, non-symbolic union movement. But nobody is talking much about that.
"In general the notion of class -- never very robust in the U.S. -- is expelled from discourse."
- In general, the notion of entrepeneurship -- never very robust in the U.S.S.R. -- was expelled from discourse there. In general, the notion of predestination -- at one time very robust all over northern and western Europe -- has been expelled from discourse there. This demonstrates a) that the bosses call the shots, and b) that times change. So what else is new?
"The war on 'terrorism' is a symbol without a clear referent, "
- Damn right! So governments like their populations to fear ghosts. What else is new? As do churches. "Witchcraft" was also "a symbol without a clear referent", centuries ago. As was "sin". As was "heaven". But so what?
"all that is solid melts into air."
- they weren't just talking about symbols, obviously, obviously, obviously.
"Senator Obama is both black and not black."
- Madonna is both cool and not cool. She is also both old and not old. Depends who you ask. But so what?
"Indecency". "Good". "Evil". "Justice". "Meaning." "Love". "Honour". Let's make a list. Or rather, let's not. Instead, let's stop struggling to pretend that all words have always had a single clear and unambiguous referent, or that something radically, coolly, postmodernly new is going on in the US right now.
The phrase "get real" was invented in the US, I believe.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 15, 2007 1:01:58 PM
Postmods generally ride wit the right, er, the disco right.
Where is the union chat? Intellectual Workers of the Web Unite! Serio, cyber-persons could conceivably force some economic and political issues via say teacher/substitute/adjunct unions, nurses unions, editor unions. Why isn't there a discussion with the Pelosicrats: hey Nance, put John Rawls' Theory of Justice on the floor of the House, or failing that, Marx. Or somethin' splashy, like, "Senator Reid--seize the funds of Gateszilla, Soros, Ellison, etc., RICO major corporations, Ivy League foundations, Ho-wood production houses, pro-sports--or else." Get an Oprah behind it and it might fly.
Posted by: 01001010 | Feb 15, 2007 1:28:09 PM
"Indecency". "Good". "Evil". "Justice". "Meaning." "Love". "Honour". Let's make a list. Or rather, let's not. Instead, let's stop struggling to pretend that all words have always had a single clear and unambiguous referent, or that something radically, coolly, postmodernly new is going on in the US right now.
Sorry to be a pedant, but there's a missing answer to the question "And, given that, then do what???" at the end of this paragraph. And everywhere you write.
Seriously, I keep reading your comments here - and I've glanced over at the Qlipoth site - and while I see lots and lots of bile for "left" "intellectuals" I don't really see a concrete sense of what people aren't doing that they should be.
If the answers is "Nothing! Just stop thinking you're leftists!" that's absolutely fine. But if that's the case, I would re-evaluate what you are spending your time on - building bonfires of vanities rather than heading into the fray yourself. That would, to my mind, make you even worse and more useless than those you attack. If this is the case you are, in short, useless to the second power.
In short, you spend what seems to be a ton of time on people who you don't really seem to think matter or ever will matter. So why?
Posted by: CR | Feb 15, 2007 6:14:08 PM
I always thought William F. Buckley was erudite and entertaining. Not that I ever agreed with him, except for that brief time in the 1980's when he advocated for the legalization of most recreationaly drugs (pot, cocaine). Of course, as a good capitalist, he wanted to let the free market regulate itself, while allowing the government to tax the transaction. Rather enlightened, don't you think?
Posted by: Alain | Feb 16, 2007 10:24:41 AM
Alain--this is a terrific post and thanks for your kind cites to what I've been trying to work through lately. Sorry to come in on this late--I only just saw the post today.
Posted by: Jodi | Feb 16, 2007 11:48:13 AM
"The war on 'terrorism' is a symbol without a clear referent, "
- Damn right! So governments like their populations to fear ghosts. What else is new? As do churches. "Witchcraft" was also "a symbol without a clear referent", centuries ago. As was "sin". As was "heaven". But so what? end warszawa
No, witchcraft had a clear referent: witches. So did 'sin.' So you now have the example you asked for of the decline of symbolic efficacy.
Posted by: Swifty | Feb 16, 2007 1:04:44 PM
Academic literary folks often wrap themselves in the mantles of Marx/Engels, parisian postmod., etc. but leftists, they are not. Belle-lettres: another monarchist jewel..............
Posted by: 01001010 | Feb 16, 2007 3:14:56 PM
Alain, one suspects the example of being chosen, but you are kinder than I about F. Buckley.
Posted by: Matt | Feb 16, 2007 8:25:13 PM
Swifty: No, witchcraft had a clear referent: witches. So did 'sin.' So you now have the example you asked for of the decline of symbolic efficacy."
Oh, please! This is no such example whatsoever. To state the grotesquely obvious: By those standards, "Terrorism" equally obviously has "a clear referent" - i.e. 'terrorism', however the US ruling class happens to wish to define it.
Does anyone here have even a passing acquaintance with the history of Christianity? Check out the wars fought over "heresy". Check out the changing definitions of that term, and the various ways in which it was used as a weapon by the powerful. While you're at it, check out the Church's attitude to "infidels" too (an English-language symbol, that, derived from Latin and the Romance languages, and perfectly efficient for its purposes as long as it was needed - just like the term "conspiracy theorist" today, in fact).
***There is no decline in symbolic efficiency. None whatsoever.*** And I'm still waiting to see a halfway serious attempt to demonstrate - with examples - that there is indeed such a decline. Either that, or at last an honest admission that the claim is utterly nonsensical and the phrase itself purely obfuscatory.
Then it might be possible to talk about actually-existing state and corporate power; the ability to enforce definitions; the long history of propaganda; and the traditional role of the clerical class as indispensable obfuscators of the obvious in the service of entrenched power (with a very few honorable exceptions).
CR: "In short, you spend what seems to be a ton of time on people who you don't really seem to think matter or ever will matter. So why? "
Where did I say they didn't matter? Nowhere. If they didn't matter, I wouldn't bother. Clearly they matter. They are American academics addressing the world and their peers while their execrable government fights its murderous and *transparently mendacious* "War on Terror". For the sixth year running.
And what are those American academics doing? See Jodi's original post, Jodi's paper, Jodi's recent blogposts, and the post from Alain that started this thread. See the responses. And then put yourself in the place of any non-American reader, and ask yourself what response you expect to all that, except astonishment and anger.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 17, 2007 9:38:26 AM
""""""They are American academics addressing the world and their peers while their execrable government fights its murderous and *transparently mendacious* "War on Terror"."""""
Yes but that's jus' how matter unfolds and reveals itself, as even PoMo Paddy Spinoza thought: unless maybe you can produce a Geist, er ghost.
Posted by: 01001010 | Feb 17, 2007 10:43:55 AM
In a sense you're right, wars, the decline is nothing new. In another sense, however, it is indeed something identifiably new (and yes, "postmodern," if you will). Just over a generation old, to be precise. Take Debord:
"The spectacle cannot be set in abstract opposition to concrete social activity, for the dichotomy between reality and image will survive on either side of any such distinction."
"The spectacle is essentially tautological, for the simple reason that its means and its ends are identical. It is the sun that never sets on the empire of modern passivity. It covers the entire globe, basking in the perpetual warmth of its own glory." -1967
Or:
"In all that has happened in the last twenty years, the most important change lies in the very continuity of the spectacle. Quite simply, the spectacle's domination has succeeded in raising a whole generation moulded to its laws. The extraordinary new conditions in which this entire generation has lived constitute a comprehensive summary of all that, henceforth, the spectacle will forbid; and also all that it will permit." - 1988
Posted by: | Feb 17, 2007 3:57:39 PM
It is bizarre to see Guy Debord (of all people!) cited in defence of Jodi's and Alain's argument that contemporary Americans can know nothing, judge nothing, and do nothing to resist their government and their mass media. Debord was never in any doubt that his symbols, De Gaulle's and LBJ's all worked quite efficiently, although they certainly did so in the service of differing agendas and with greatly varying effectiveness.
There is a difference between describing a difficulty and working hard to exacerbate it.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 18, 2007 4:15:09 PM
Miss WWWarsz,
have a nice cup of........
Posted by: 01001010 | Feb 18, 2007 4:22:39 PM
Mr. ZeroEtcetera, I didn't know you had nothing to say, although I did suspect it. In any case, your wish is not (yet) my command.
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 18, 2007 4:32:16 PM
That's called a byte, Mam: as in, the poodle bytes---she, er, it yaps too.
Posted by: 01001010 | Feb 18, 2007 4:39:15 PM
Symbolic efficiency is alive and well:
http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000497.html
- But what does it all mean? (Personally, I think it looks very much like a victory salute. And who can blame him?)
Posted by: warszawa | Feb 18, 2007 4:56:43 PM
I kind of lost the thread of the comments about half way through, so forgive me if I´m saying something that´s already been said.
You say that, even if Carter´s National Security Advisor was on every news channel in the US, people still would not believe that the US is planning an attack on Iran. I haven´t been to the US for a while, but the Americans I´ve spoken to recently seem pretty aware of such plans.
Likewise in Britain, the BBC has just unearthed "US plans to attack Iran" (all in inverted commas of course). And, as we all know, Everybody Believes The BBC.
The problem doesn´t seem to be whether people are aware of it, but whether they´re AWARE of it. My philosophical lingo isn´t up to describing these two kinds of awareness in technical terms. But there is a difference between being aware that something exists, way out there in the aether, and being aware that something REALLY EXISTS AND IS GOING TO AFFECT ME!
I know plenty of people who were quite well aware of what was going on in Lebanon last summer, or what is going on Iraq right now, and would still never even think of taking to the streets, or doing anything else about it.
This is not to be defeatist, but it is to recognise that another solution is needed, other than more information and attempts to make people believe it.
(Sorry, I have a feeling I may have repeated what everybody has said...)
Posted by: Paddington | Feb 20, 2007 6:56:53 PM
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