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we must take the matter pretty deep

Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, Book I, Part IV, Section VI, "Of personal identity"

There are some philosophers who imagine we are every moment intimately conscious of what we call our SELF; that we feel its existence and its continuance in existence; and are certain, beyond the evidence of a demonstration, both of its perfect identity and simplicity. The strongest sensation, the most violent passion, say they, instead of distracting us from this view, only fix it the more intensely, and make us consider their influence on self either by their pain or pleasure. To attempt a farther proof of this were to weaken its evidence; since no proof can be deriv'd from any fact, of which we are so intimately conscious; nor is there any thing, of which we can be certain, if we doubt of this.

Unluckily all these positive assertions are contrary to that very experience, which is pleaded for them, nor have we any idea of self, after the manner it is here explain'd. For from what impression cou'd this idea be deriv'd? This question 'tis impossible to answer without a manifest contradiction and absurdity; and yet 'tis a question, which must necessarily be answer'd, if we wou'd have the idea of self pass for clear and intelligible. It must be some one impression, that gives rise to every real idea. But self or person is not any one impression, but that to which our several impressions and ideas are suppos'd to have a reference. If any impression gives rise to the idea of self, that impression must continue invariably the same, thro' the whole course of our lives; since self is suppos'd to exist after that manner. But there is no impression constant and invariable. Pain and pleasure, grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never all exist at the same time. It cannot, therefore, be from any of these impressions, or from any other, that the idea of self is deriv'd; and consequently there is no such idea.

But farther, what must become of all our particular perceptions upon this hypothesis? All these are different, and distinguishable, and separable from each other, and may be separately consider'd, and may exist separately, and have no need of any thing to support their existence. After what manner, therefore, do they belong to self; and how are they connected with it? For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception. When my perceptions are remov'd for any time, as by sound sleep; so long am I insensible of myself, and may truly be said not to exist. And were all my perceptions remov'd by death, and cou'd I neither think, nor feel, nor see, nor love, nor hate after the dissolution of my body, I shou'd be entirely annihilated, nor do I conceive what is farther requisite to make me a perfect non-entity. If any one, upon serious and unprejudic'd reflection thinks he has a different notion of himself, I must confess I can reason no longer with him. All I can allow him is, that he may be in the right as well as I, and that we are essentially different in this particular. He may, perhaps, perceive something simple and continu'd, which he calls himself; tho' I am certain there is no such principle in me.

But setting aside some metaphysicians of this kind, I may venture to affirm of the rest of mankind, that they are nothing but a bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed each other with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement. Our eyes cannot turn in their sockets without varying our perceptions. Our thought is still more variable than our sight; and all our other senses and faculties contribute to this change; nor is there any single power of the soul, which remains unalterably the same, perhaps for one moment. The mind is a kind of theatre, where several perceptions successively make their appearance; pass, re-pass, glide away, and mingle in an infinite variety of postures and situations. There is properly no simplicity in it at one time, nor identity in different; whatever natural propension we may have to imagine that simplicity and identity. The comparison of the theatre must not mislead us. They are the successive perceptions only, that constitute the mind; nor have we the most distant notion of the place, where these scenes are represented, or of the materials, of which it is compos'd.

What then gives us so great a propension to ascribe an identity to these successive perceptions, and to suppose ourselves possest of an invariable and uninterrupted existence thro' the whole course of our lives? In order to answer this question, we must distinguish betwixt personal identity, as it regards our thought or imagination, and as it regards our passions or the concern we take in ourselves. The first is our present subject; and to explain it perfectly we must take the matter pretty deep, and account for that identity, which we attribute to plants and animals; there being a great analogy betwixt it, and the identity of a self or person.

We have a distinct idea of an object, that remains invariable and uninterrupted thro' a suppos'd variation of time; and this idea we call that of identity or sameness. We have also a distinct idea of several different objects existing in succession, and connected together by a close relation; and this to an accurate view affords as perfect a notion of diversity, as if there was no manner of relation among the objects. But tho' these two ideas of identity, and a succession of related objects be in themselves perfectly distinct, and even contrary, yet 'tis certain, that in our common way of thinking they are generally confounded with each other. That action of the imagination, by which we consider the uninterrupted and invariable object, and that by which we reflect on the succession of related objects, are almost the same to the feeling, nor is there much more effort of thought requir'd in the latter case than in the former. The relation facilitates the transition of the mind from one object to another, and renders its passage as smooth as if it contemplated one continu'd object. This resemblance is the cause of the confusion and mistake, and makes us substitute the notion of identity, instead of that of related objects. However at one instant we may consider the related succession as variable or interrupted, we are sure the next to ascribe to it a perfect identity, and regard it as invariable and uninterrupted. Our propensity to this mistake is so great from the resemblance above-mention'd, that we fall into it before we are aware; and tho' we incessantly correct ourselves by reflection, and return to a more accurate method of thinking, yet we cannot long sustain our philosophy, or take off this bias from the imagination. Our last resource is to yield to it, and boldly assert that these different related objects are in effect the same, however interrupted and variable. In order to justify to ourselves this absurdity, we often feign some new and unintelligible principle, that connects the objects together, and prevents their interruption or variation. Thus we feign the continu'd existence of the perceptions of our senses, to remove the interruption: and run into the notion of a soul, and self, and substance, to disguise the variation. But we may farther observe, that where we do not give rise to such a fiction, our propension to confound identity with relation is so great, that we are apt to imagine something unknown and mysterious, connecting the parts, beside their relation; and this I take to be the case with regard to the identity we ascribe to plants and vegetables. And even when this does not take place, we still feel a propensity to confound these ideas, tho' we are not able fully to satisfy ourselves in that particular, nor find any thing invariable and uninterrupted to justify our notion of identity.

Thus the controversy concerning identity is not merely a dispute of words. For when we attribute identity, in an improper sense, to variable or interrupted objects, our mistake is not confin'd to the expression, but is commonly attended with a fiction, either of something invariable and uninterrupted, or of something mysterious and inexplicable, or at least with a propensity to such fictions. What will suffice to prove this hypothesis to the satisfaction of every fair enquirer, is to shew from daily experience and observation, that the objects, which are variable or interrupted, and yet are suppos'd to continue the same, are such only as consist of a succession of parts, connected together by resemblance, contiguity, or causation. For as such a succession answers evidently to our notion of diversity, it can only be by mistake we ascribe to it an identity; and as the relation of parts, which leads us into this mistake, is really nothing but a quality, which produces an association of ideas, and an easy transition of the imagination from one to another, it can only be from the resemblance, which this act of the mind bears to that, by which we contemplate one continu'd object, that the error arises. Our chief business, then, must be to prove, that all objects, to which we ascribe identity, without observing their invariableness and uninterruptedness, are such as consist of a succession of related objects.

In order to this, suppose any mass of matter, of which the parts are contiguous and connected, to be plac'd before us; 'tis plain we must attribute a perfect identity to this mass, provided all the parts continue uninterruptedly and invariably the same, whatever motion or change of place we may observe either in the whole or in any of the parts. But supposing some very small or inconsiderable part to be added to the mass, or subtracted from it; tho' this absolutely destroys the identity of the whole, strictly speaking; yet as we seldom think so accurately, we scruple not to pronounce a mass of matter the same, where we find so trivial an alteration. The passage of the thought from the object before the change to the object after it, is so smooth and easy, that we scarce perceive the transition, and are apt to imagine, that 'tis nothing but a continu'd survey of the same object.

There is a very remarkable circumstance, that attends this experiment; which is, that tho' the change of any considerable part in a mass of matter destroys the identity of the whole, yet we must measure the greatness of the part, not absolutely, but by its proportion to the whole. The addition or diminution of a mountain wou'd not be sufficient to produce a diversity in a planet: tho' the change of a very few inches wou'd be able to destroy the identity of some bodies. 'Twill be impossible to account for this, but by reflecting that objects operate upon the mind, and break or interrupt the continuity of its actions not according to their real greatness, but according to their proportion to each other: And therefore, since this interruption makes an object cease to appear the same, it must be the uninterrupted progress of the thought, which constitutes the imperfect identity.

This may be confirm'd by another phenomenon. A change in any considerable part of a body destroys its identity; but 'tis remarkable, that where the change is produc'd gradually and insensibly we are less apt to ascribe to it the same effect. The reason can plainly be no other, than that the mind, in following the successive changes of the body, feels an easy passage from the surveying its condition in one moment to the viewing of it in another, and at no particular time perceives any interruption in its actions. From which continu'd perception, it ascribes a continu'd existence and identity to the object.

But whatever precaution we may use in introducing the changes gradually, and making them proportionable to the whole, 'tis certain, that where the changes are at last observ'd to become considerable, we make a scruple of ascribing identity to such different objects. There is, however, another artifice, by which we may induce the imagination to advance a step farther; and that is, by producing a reference of the parts to each other, and a combination to some common end or purpose. A ship, of which a considerable part has been chang'd by frequent reparations, is still considered as the same; nor does the difference of the materials hinder us from ascribing an identity to it. The common end, in which the parts conspire, is the same under all their variations, and affords an easy transition of the imagination from one situation of the body to another.

But this is still more remarkable, when we add a sympathy of parts to their common end, and suppose that they bear to each other, the reciprocal relation of cause and effect in all their actions and operations. This is the case with all animals and vegetables; where not only the several parts have a reference to some general purpose, but also a mutual dependence on, and connexion with each other. The effect of so strong a relation is, that tho' every one must allow, that in a very few years both vegetables and animals endure a total change, yet we still attribute identity to them, while their form, size, and substance are entirely alter'd. An oak, that grows from a small plant to a large tree, is still the same oak; tho' there be not one particle of matter, or figure of its parts the same. An infant becomes a man, and is sometimes fat, sometimes lean, without any change in his identity.

[skip two paragraphs]

We now proceed to explain the nature of personal identity, which has become so great a question in philosophy, especially of late years in England, where all the abstruser sciences are study'd with a peculiar ardour and application. And here 'tis evident, the same method of reasoning must be continu'd, which has so successfully explain'd the identity of plants, and animals, and ships, and houses, and of all the compounded and changeable productions either of art or nature. The identity, which we ascribe to the mind of man, is only a fictitious one, and of a like kind with that which we ascribe to vegetables and animal bodies. It cannot, therefore, have a different origin, but must proceed from a like operation of the imagination upon like objects.

But lest this argument shou'd not convince the reader; tho' in my opinion perfectly decisive; let him weigh the following reasoning, which is still closer and more immediate. 'Tis evident, that the identity, which we attribute to the human mind, however perfect we may imagine it to be, is not able to run the several different perceptions into one, and make them lose their characters of distinction and difference, which are essential to them. 'Tis still true, that every distinct perception, which enters into the composition of the mind, is a distinct existence, and is different, and distinguishable, and separable from every other perception, either contemporary or successive. But, as, notwithstanding this distinction and separability, we suppose the whole train of perceptions to be united by identity, a question naturally arises concerning this relation of identity; whether it be something that really binds our several perceptions together, or only associates their ideas in the imagination. That is, in other words, whether in pronouncing concerning the identity of a person, we observe some real bond among his perceptions, or only feel one among the ideas we form of them. This question we might easily decide, if we wou'd recollect what has been already prov'd at large, that the understanding never observes any real connexion among objects, and that even the union of cause and effect, when strictly examin'd, resolves itself into a customary association of ideas. For from thence it evidently follows, that identity is nothing really belonging to these different perceptions, and uniting them together; but is merely a quality, which we attribute to them, because of the union of their ideas in the imagination, when we reflect upon them. Now the only qualities, which can give ideas an union in the imagination, are these three relations above-mentioned. There are the uniting principles in the ideal world, and without them every distinct object is separable by the mind, and may be separately consider'd, and appears not to have any more connexion with any other object, than if disjoin'd by the greatest difference and remoteness. 'Tis, therefore, on some of these three relations of resemblance, contiguity and causation, that identity depends; and as the very essence of these relations consists in their producing an easy transition of ideas; it follows, that our notions of personal identity, proceed entirely from the smooth and uninterrupted progress of the thought along a train of connected ideas, according to the principles above-explain'd.

The only question, therefore, which remains, is, by what relations this uninterrupted progress of our thought is produc'd, when we consider the successive existence of a mind or thinking person. And here 'tis evident we must confine ourselves to resemblance and causation, and must drop contiguity, which has little or no influence in the present case.

To begin with resemblance; suppose we cou'd see clearly into the breast of another, and observe that succession of perceptions, which constitutes his mind or thinking principle, and suppose that he always preserves the memory of a considerable part of past perceptions; 'tis evident that nothing cou'd more contribute to the bestowing a relation on this succession amidst all its variations. For what is the memory but a faculty, by which we raise up the images of past perceptions? And as an image necessarily resembles its object, must not the frequent placing of these resembling perceptions in the chain of thought, convey the imagination more easily from one link to another, and make the whole seem like the continuance of one object? In this particular, then, the memory not only discovers the identity, but also contributes to its production, by producing the relation of resemblance among the perceptions. The case is the same whether we consider ourselves or others.
As to causation; we may observe, that the true idea of the human mind, is to consider it as a system of different perceptions or different existences, which are link'd together by the relation of cause and effect, and mutually produce, destroy, influence, and modify each other. Our impressions give rise to their correspondent ideas; said these ideas in their turn produce other impressions. One thought chases another, and draws after it a third, by which it is expell'd in its turn. In this respect, I cannot compare the soul more properly to any thing than to a republic or commonwealth, in which the several members are united by the reciprocal ties of government and subordination, and give rise to other persons, who propagate the same republic in the incessant changes of its parts. And as the same individual republic may not only change its members, but also its laws and constitutions; in like manner the same person may vary his character and disposition, as well as his impressions and ideas, without losing his identity. Whatever changes he endures, his several parts are still connected by the relation of causation. And in this view our identity with regard to the passions serves to corroborate that with regard to the imagination, by the making our distant perceptions influence each other, and by giving us a present concern for our past or future pains or pleasures.

As a memory alone acquaints us with the continuance and extent of this succession of perceptions, 'tis to be considered, upon that account chiefly, as the source of personal identity. Had we no memory, we never shou'd have any notion of causation, nor consequently of that chain of causes and effects, which constitute our self or person. But having once acquir'd this notion of causation from the memory, we can extend the same chain of causes, and consequently the identity of car persons beyond our memory, and can comprehend times, and circumstances, and actions, which we have entirely forgot, but suppose in general to have existed. For how few of our past actions are there, of which we have any memory? Who can tell me, for instance, what were his thoughts and actions on the 1st of January 1715, the 11th of March 1719, and the 3rd of August 1733? Or will he affirm, because he has entirely forgot the incidents of these days, that the present self is not the same person with the self of that time; and by that means overturn all the most established notions of personal identity? In this view, therefore, memory does not so much produce as discover personal identity, by shewing us the relation of cause and effect among our different perceptions. 'Twill be incumbent on those, who affirm that memory produces entirely our personal identity, to give a reason why we cm thus extend our identity beyond our memory.

The whole of this doctrine leads us to a conclusion, which is of great importance in the present affair, viz. that all the nice and subtile questions concerning personal identity can never possibly be decided, and are to be regarded rather as grammatical than as philosophical difficulties. Identity depends on the relations of ideas; and these relations produce identity, by means of that easy transition they occasion. But as the relations, and the easiness of the transition may diminish by insensible degrees, we have no just standard, by which we can decide any dispute concerning the time, when they acquire or lose a title to the name of identity. All the disputes concerning the identity of connected objects are merely verbal, except so far as the relation of parts gives rise to some fiction or imaginary principle of union, as we have already observ'd.

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By Swifty | February 15, 2007 in Flowers of evil, Nietzsche, Postmodernism, Psychoanalysis | Permalink

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In his first paragraph Hume begins his attack on the notion of a 'self.' He writes: "There are some philosophers who imagine we are every moment intimately conscious of what we call our SELF; that we feel its existence and its continuance in existence; and are certain, beyond the evidence of a demonstration, both of its perfect identity and simplicity."

At least one philosopher who thinks of the 'self' this way is Descartes. But it's not just philosophers who feel this way. Isn't this the common sense view as well?

Hume's challenge relies on a background epistemological claim established earlier: that you can't get ideas from anything but impressions. He counts on that background when he asks, in the second paragraph: "For from what impression cou'd this idea be deriv'd?"

Hume often anticipates likely objections. In that vein, he writes that the "self or person is not any one impression, but that to which our several impressions and ideas are suppos'd to have a reference. If any impression gives rise to the idea of self, that impression must continue invariably the same, thro' the whole course of our lives; since self is suppos'd to exist after that manner. But there is no impression constant and invariable. Pain and pleasure, grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never all exist at the same time."

Sure, Hume is saying, maybe the self isn't just some one impression. It's a central point that all our impressions make reference to. But then that 'central reference point' must make itself felt constantly. "But there is no impression constant and invariable." And so there is no self.

Hume dismisses the idea of the self in the following, third paragraph. He says that when he reflects on it, he never comes across anything like 'myself.'

"For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception."

But I'm not sure that's right. Won't the 'habit' of thinking of oneself (so to speak) as a self make it possible to 'see' oneself? I get drunk and so can't teach a class properly the next day and I 'blame myself' for my actions. Hume might say "that's a fiction" but I would respond, "maybe, but it's a fiction that makes an impression on me."

Next: the fourth paragraph! Hint: Hume reminds me of Plato! Read the fourth paragraph above to see why!

Posted by: Swifty | Feb 17, 2007 1:48:03 PM

Notice that Hume says he is unable to find 'myself' when he looks around -- just this or that impression of pain, pride, whatever, but no self. Nor does it work, he thinks, to speak of some kind of organizing center with reference to which all subordinate impressions direct themselves. That would have to be a constant impression, and there isn't anything like that.

Fichte, by the way, comes to some very different conclusions when talking about the way thinking works. But it might be worthwhile to remind ourselves of Kant's view of the relation of the 'impressions' the human mind receives and how those are 'organized.' It's a famouse passage from _Critique of Pure Reason_, "Analytic of Concepts," the section titled "The Original Synthetic Unity of Apperception."

"The 'I think' must be capable of accompanying all of my representations; for otherwise something would be represented which could not be thought at all, and that is equivalent to saying that the representation would be impossible, or at least would be nothing to me. That representation which can be given prior to all thought is entitled 'intuition.' All the manifold of intuition has, therefore, a necessary relation to the 'I think' in the same subject in which this manifold is found. But this representation is an act of spontaneity, that is, it cannot be regarded as belonging to sensibility. I call it 'pure apperception,' to distinguish it from empirical apperception, or, again, 'original apperception,' because it is that self-consiousness which, while generating the representation 'I think' (a representation which must be capable of accompanying all other representations, and which in all consciousness is one and the same), cannot itself be accompanied by any further representation. The unity of this apperception I likewise entitle the 'transcendental unity of self-consciousness,' in order to indicate the possibility of a priori knowledge arising from it. For the manifold representations, which are given in an intuition, would not be one and all my representations, if they did not all belong to one self-consciousness. As my representations (even if I am not conscious of them as such) they must conform to the condition under which alone they can stand together in one universal self-consciousness, because otherwise they would not all without exception belong to me. From this original combination many consequences follow."

Posted by: Swifty | Feb 18, 2007 5:30:27 PM

"There are some philosophers who imagine we are every moment intimately conscious of what we call our SELF; that we feel its existence and its continuance in existence; and are certain, beyond the evidence of a demonstration, both of its perfect identity and simplicity..."

Yes, and there are other philosophers who suggest we are "every moment intimately conscious" of what we call Dasein, or trying to be conscious of it, or perhaps trying to forget that mysterious little mensch ever materialized at all....Seriously, S., what think you Hume would have had to say about Heidegger's postmodernist scholasticism?? Given his insistence on matters of fact and demonstrative knowledge (more or less synthetic and analytical "truth process"), he unlikely would have thought very much of it.............

Posted by: unConDITioned | Mar 11, 2007 3:25:37 PM

No doubt about it, UnConDITioned, Hume would say "I don't think so" about Dasein. But Hume would say that about *anybody* who tried to think about 'the subject,' a term Heidegger avoids and replaces, for obvious reasons. Heidegger is certainly in the tradition of those (Descartes, Kant, Fichte, Hegel, Marx) who believe we need to successfully account for the kind of interaction we have with our environment. Descartes gives us subject/object, Kant gives us an 'I think' that accompanies all my representations, and so on. And so yes, Hume would say something like "what perception is joined to this word 'Dasein'?" One of the problems with Hume's approach, notice, is that he doesn't account for what certainly seems to be the *appearance* of a self. He rather weakly describes this as a 'habit.' We do seem to experience, even if it's just us moderns, a representation called 'the self.' Hume writes:

For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception. [end Hume]

Does Hume protest a little too much? Really can't catch sight of himself? Really the case that Hume can't figure out what everyone is talking about?

Heidegger's response is going to be to sort of dissolve the problem. Hume writes: "This deficiency in our ideas (that is, their inability to penetrate to the true essence of objects - swifty) is not, indeed, perceiv'd in common life, nor are we sensible, that in the most usual conjunctions of cause and effect we are as ignorant of the ultimate principle, which binds them together, as in the most unusual and extraordinary. But this proceeds merely from an illusion of the imagination; and the question is, how far we ought to yield to those illusions. This question is very difficult, and reduces us to a very dangerous dilemma, which-ever way we answer it." (Treatise, Book I, Section VII, "Conclusion of this book)

Exactly: the question is, how far we ought to yield to those illusions. Is the self an illusion? Well, pretty much everything is an "illusion of the imagination" according to you, and so you really haven't said much specific yet about 'the self.'

Heidegger's response would be something like: If we adopt Hume's definitions and the whole approach to cognition he employs, which is a kind of radicalized Cartesian cogito, then we won't get to Dasein. But that just shows that Hume's approach lacks something, or that other approaches highlight other aspects of our being-in-the-world not well-represented by the various versions of the cogito.

Think too of the Jeremiah-like lament that Hume ends Part One of the Treatise with. There he complains that all his philosophic efforts leave him existentially shipwrecked with no hope of resolution. "Where am I, or what? From what causes do I derive my existence, and to what condition shall I return? . . . What beings surround me? . . . I am confounded with all these questions, and begin to fancy myself in the most deplorable condition imaginable, inviron'd with the deepest darkness, and utterly depriv'd of the use of every member and faculty.
"Most fortunately it happens, that since reason is incapable of dispelling these clouds, nature herself suffices to that purpose, and cures me of this philosophical melancholy and delirium, either by relaxing this bent of mind, or by some avocation, and lively impression of my senses, which obliterate all these chimeras. I dine, I play a game of backgammon, I converse, and am merry with my friends; and when after three or four hour's amusement, I wou'd return to these speculations, they appear so cold, and strain'd, and ridiculous, that I cannot in my heart enter into them any farther."

Heidegger would say "yes that's exactly right, but instead of bemoaning the gap between philosophic activity and 'average everydayness' you should have paid more attention to the kinds of being that were being deployed in these different contexts. You missed an important clue which could have pointed you to the insight that you are never going to get anywhere -- not you, not Kant, not any of the others -- never going to get anywhere trying to account for the full range of human being via the restricted model of subject-object." Here's how Stephen Mulhall, in his guide to Being and Time, puts this point about the inadequacy of the Cartesian model:

The Cartesian model of the human relationship to the world is unable to coherently characterize the very mode of human engagement with objects that it takes to be the logical and metaphysical foundation of all our interactions withe the world. Heidegger's diagnosis is that the Cartesian model fails to take account of the phenomenon of the world. For its initial interpretation of human knowledge as an isolated relation between two present-at-hand entities entirely omits that phenomenon; and the consequent irrefutability of skepticism is, in effect, a demonstration that it is not possible to arrive at a viable concept of the world if one begins from that starting point. (Stephen Mulhall, Heidegger and Being and Time. Routledge, 1996)

Posted by: Swifty | Mar 11, 2007 5:27:32 PM


For all the existentialist hullabaloo, Dasein appears a priori, even platonic--the interaction of Dasein (via revealings, awareness of death, anxiety, etc.) with the self or ego (assuming one "exists"--- tho' temporality and bio-chemistry suggest otherwise, a point Hume was somewhat aware of) is not really specified, as the interaction of Descartes' subject and object (both great abstractions, obviously) are not precisely specified (and what is a lobotomy to a Cartesian, or even crypto-cartesian such as Heidegger?). There are no real proofs or arguments given for the ontological "a prioricity" of Dasein--however useful it might be in salvaging a metaphysical--or theological--subject. I do not think one should therefore side with say a Skinner (or Quine, riding shotgun) and dismiss all claims about self or ego or even Cartesian subject as mentalism, but questioning the grand platonic (yet that platonism is not that of a realm of universals or abstract entities per Frege, who had some fairly harsh words for H's daddy Husserl--perhaps its pre-platonic) assumptions of Dasein certainly seems proper, if not somewhat right course for secularists. The continental given that empiricism is "vulgar" is itself questionable---; for one engagement with the world demands certain types of specific knowledge, not merely reflection or revealings: were your family members seriously ill you would not pick up Sein und Zeit, you'd call an MD, who has mastery over the factual, empirical-based knowledge of medicine. And in a very real sense, political and economic life requires many types of empirical or rational knowledge that Heidegger and the existentialists ignore.

Posted by: unConDITioned | Mar 11, 2007 7:50:30 PM


However, I will grant the old-school variety of existenz philosophy (tho' I do not claim mastery over Heidegger or Sartre's bizarre systems), with its insistence on dread, angst, death, inauthenticity, freedom had a certain compelling psychological intensity about it--postmodernists seem to have stripped away the darker elements of that school (which obviously was a bit pretentious in a way). As a workable political foundation, however, Dasein seems about as applicable as, er, Screepture or Plato.

Posted by: unConDITioned | Mar 11, 2007 8:14:05 PM

"As a workable political foundation, however, Dasein seems about as applicable as, er, Screepture or Plato."

So you don't think a workable political foundation can come out of Scripture or Plato?

Are you familiar with Max Weber's essays on religion? "Religious rejections of the world and its directions". Believe it or not, there's a web version here:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/moriyuki/abukuma/weber/world/reject/rejection_frame.html

The religious rejection of the world, the religious devaluation of the world, had a profound political impact. For a really long, long time. Or don't you agree with Nietzsche's analysis in _Genealogy_ (which is a companion piece, really, to Weber's essays on the same topic).

The links between notions of being and political action are always going to be ambiguous. I think neither you nor I would argue that notions of being played no role in the European Enlightenment and the French Revolution. So we have Fichte theorizing the outlook of the French Revolution as sketched in the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen.

Also, I completely grant that I would rush to a doctor and not to a philosophic text when loved ones confronted a medical emergency, but of course it wouldn't be strange or perverse at all to consult some of those texts in a less immediate context. And that latter activity is no less important, no less practical, than getting medical care for loved ones. That's a way of being! Don't tell me it isn't! If someone is sick I'm not going to spend a lot of time reading La Rochefoucauld, or is it Nietzsche, who writes that the moans of the sick are a way the sick revenge themselves on the healthy. Even though that might be 'true' (from the point of view of a certain kind of being, a certain kind of Dasein).

But I also agree with your warning:

"questioning the grand platonic . . . assumptions of Dasein certainly seems proper, if not somewhat right course for secularists"

Because Heidegger does give off a religious stench sometimes. The book I happen to be reading now, which I recommend, by Stephen Mulhall, Heidegger and Being and Time, I think strongly underemphasizes this reading of Being and Time and maybe that's why I like it as a secondary guide. Mulhall's approach, if I haven't got it wrong, is to see all the mechanics of Being and Time purely in the context of coming up with a more adequate idea and vocabulary for thinking about human beings and their interaction with the world (though he has problems with the dualism implicit in that phrasing).

Posted by: Swifty | Mar 11, 2007 9:17:29 PM

"""The links between notions of being and political action are always going to be ambiguous. I think neither you nor I would argue that notions of being played no role in the European Enlightenment and the French Revolution.... ."""

Yes, members of 1st and 2nd Estate, might, post-bacchannal, have time to contemplate Plato, or Mozart, or reflect on the unfolding of Being itself; members of the 3rd estate generally don't have that luxuxy, and their few contemplations are probably more along the lines of how effectively to liquidate the 1st and 2nd estates.....(sort of silly, but ah think the encyclopedists were quite practical gents---generally materialists, right--- and would have thought Heideggerianism to be some type of ultra-metaphysics)

Posted by: unConDITioned | Mar 12, 2007 11:39:54 AM

Don't kid yourself with the pose that "yeah but manly men don't have time for frilly thinkified learning when there's lots of grubby, manly work to do."

Have you read Sieyes' pamphlet, "What is the third estate?" An excerpt is available at

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/sieyes.html

What else is that but an assertion, a "coming out" essay about a kind of being that is going to be making some pretty serious claims, as time goes by. Sieyes' pamphlet appears in early 1789. Here's how it starts:

"The plan of this book is fairly simple. We must ask ourselves three questions.
1. What is the Third State? Everything.
2. What has it been until now in the political order? Nothing.
3. What does it want to be? Something...."

and the rest of the pamphlet is a justification of that claim and an elaboration of the new norms that would regulate the new order.

So I just think it's a mistake to underestimate the role of philosophic reflection when it comes to founding, elaborating on, and finally critiqueing modes of being that make their appearance in history. Not that philosophy is the sole creator of value -- it's all a rich tapestry. I guess I'm a believer in the "it's no accident" school of history. As in, "It's no accident that Fichte wrote The Science of Knowledge in the immediate context of the ongoing French Revolution. The political, legal, and ethical principles that prompted the French Revolution were grounded in philosophic reflection in Fichte's text -- though of course the transfer from politics to philosophy is not friction free, and one can never simply be the thoughtless mirror of the other."

Posted by: Swifty | Mar 12, 2007 1:51:43 PM

the role of philosophic reflection

That sounds nice, and subjectively seems correct; of course since Bacon's time, physical science has suggested something quite opposed to those rational, subjective assumptions, and I do not think even Kant rejects determinism, really: he grants something like "Freedom" In terms of conceptualism, c'est vraiment: there are even marxists, are there not, who grant a Kantian sort of synthesis (the understanding requires objects derived from sensation, or mathematics, for knowledge---tho' that does not necessarily entail immaterialism, either in terms of a "free" subject, or some vague noumenal realm--which Kant himself claims is far more speculative than empirical knowledge). Kant hisself had a bust of Rousseau near his hairshirt closet, right. The existentialists, like traditional clerics, continually deny determinism, and really any sort of materialism---economic, biological, what have you.

Posted by: unConDITioned | Mar 12, 2007 2:06:02 PM

That's a bit sloppy. To be honest, Dasein (and Heidegger's entire corpus) appears theological, platonic, immaterial, though a very clever and subtle theo-ontology; Dasein thus has some relation to the perfect Being of continental rationalism; yet Heidegger does not even actually attempt the sorts of traditional arguments of Descartes or Leibniz (or Kant). So, assuming that the anti-theological arguments of Candide had some force (and other french skeptics--Diderot, etc.-- influenced by Locke, Newton, Hume, etc.), it would seem that anyone upholding the secular (and indeed empirical) principles of the Enlightenment and even the jacobins--would be a fortiori opposed to Heidegger's non-empirical metaphysics; however I do think there is a sort of aristotelian aspect to Heidegger--the teleological cause--which is overlooked--it is not exactly theological, and in a sense a type of determinism, and anti-humanist, and even opposed to the sort of conceptualism or reflection that you suggest (or Kant I guess). Who cares really--postmod more or less destroyed that teleological discussion as well as rationality.

Posted by: unConDITioned | Mar 12, 2007 2:29:37 PM

Jus' gimme some.........Dasein

Posted by: unConDITioned | Aug 10, 2007 9:16:11 AM

""""The mind is a kind of theatre, where several perceptions successively make their appearance; pass, re-pass, glide away, and mingle in an infinite variety of postures and situations."""""

No froggy marxist ever croaked something so rare as this passage from Herr Hume's Treatise. For that matter, neither did any German metaphysician.

Nominated: Top 10 spammed-in LS posts............

Posted by: Celine | Sep 15, 2007 1:33:20 PM

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